OPENING

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Imagine a world where every decision sends a ripple, a literal echo that shapes the world. That's echo-bound adventures. And tonight I'm joined by Chris and Isaiah, so we're going to pull back the curtain and let us know about the game.

PHASE A: INTRODUCING CHRIS & ISAIAS

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Welcome to the Just Play podcast. This is me, your host JP, and this is a very special Just Play with Others episode where I'm joined by Chris and Isaiah from Tempest Workshop. And we're going to be talking about the brand new Echo Bound Adventures. So let's waste no time and get straight over there. How are you doing, guys?

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Evening. I say evening to me, but I'm in the UK, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Your morning, right? It's technically technically morning, a little bit before noon.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

A little bit before noon. Okay, late morning. Yeah. We're in Seattle. Oh, okay. Okay. West Coast. So yeah. That's a big time zone going for me and you. Definitely. How you how you doing? You doing well?

unknown 1:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Been good. Yeah. I've been uh gearing up for this Kickstarter. It's gonna be uh launching here pretty shortly. I don't think we've announced the official date yet. Uh I think Isaiah said I know it, but it's privileged information. Uh yeah, best not to say.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

No, I think they just announced it. They just announced it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah. I th I think you're right.

unknown 1:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

I think it's came in the email. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Great. Well, yeah, so we're geared up for that. It's been uh it's been a long journey for Echo Bound, but we're excited for people to finally get to take a look at it. Um yeah, it's been busy.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Nice. Excellent, excellent. Okay, so before we get into Echo Bound, and I know the watchers and listeners will be like, shut up, JP. We want to get straight into the meat.

What was the last game Chris & Isaias has Just Played?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Um, I'm gonna put a little barrier in, just very briefly, because I want to learn a little bit about yourself and and you Chris and Isaiah in your brief journey into the hobby. But my first question, typically I ask on all guests, is what was the latest game that you just played? What's been hitting the table? Other than Echo Bone, of course. Anything else?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, I just this past weekend finished up the uh the first 10 years of a cozy stickerville uh campaign.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

The sticker, the stickerbook thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah.

unknown 2:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Is it good?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah, I I I really, really enjoyed it. Um uh a good friend of mine, uh Stephanie Straw picked it up. She had she didn't even know anything about it. She just saw it and she's like, I like stickers and I like cozy games, so let's let's give it a try. And then um a couple weeks after she ordered it, we learned it was nominated for a spiel, and so we're like, well, we gotta we gotta give it a shot. So nice played through it. I thought it was really fun. I thought it was really uh it's very charming. Um, it's a very simple system that gives you some interesting choices, and and for me, for a cozy game, you know, to me, cozy games are all about sort of those intrinsic goals. It's the game doesn't really tell you exactly what to do, it kind of lets you make up your goals for yourself. And I and I find that really enjoyable and and soothing. So um it took us like maybe two evenings to get through it. We just we we jammed through it pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Yeah, that sounds cool. What about you, Isaac? What have you been playing?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Well, I don't want to cheat because it was a game that I designed.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Oh, you can cheat. You're allowed to cheat here.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

It's cool. Uh yeah, uh last game I played was Dice Kingdoms of Valeria, which is a it's a roll and write game that I designed uh with my buddy Greg. Um, but we just always play that game because it's uh you know, I don't know if you've ever played like Gonchant So Clever, but it it's it's a lot of comboing and you roll the dice, you do one thing, and it just like bounces around, yeah. Uh getting a lot of stuff. But other than that, I've been actually playing a lot of uh video games. So I just finished uh Mina the Hollower. I didn't 100% complete it, but I did finish it.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

So well, to be honest, finishing video games for me is is is a bit of an achievement for itself. So if I can get through it, I used to be that guy had to hunt in achievements. I used to be me. I used to be trying to collect all the things in the game, but spending hours and hours now, but I don't have time anymore. Not since board games have been taken over, just kind of gone out of the way. Video games go away, and just more winner can't be bothered to set a game up. So yeah, yeah, that's cool though.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Oh, and uh, I guess before that, my buddy Greg was trying to get me into Magic the Gathering. Oh, yeah, just that little bender um pack. That was it was okay. Okay, it was all right. Did you have you not played Magic before, as I guess? Yeah, before, but I just never got into it. I'm not I don't the my brain doesn't work like you know, card construction and all kinds of little tiny rules. Yeah, fair enough. I like more kind of medium weight, simplicity, you know, good time. Uh anyone can play it sort of game.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

No, that's fair, that's

What are Chris & Isaias's favourite games?

SPEAKER_02 5:08

fair. Um so if I was to ask you and put you on the spot, and and if you had to pick one game that was your top game, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Are you asking as I'll ask you, Chris?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Let's start with you.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Okay, well, you guys I have like so for me, I think that I have kind of a a stock answer to this because when you design games, you get asked a lot like what your favorite game is. Yeah, and so I I kind of go to my my default answer, which is partially true, but maybe a little bit of like a nostalgia. But I always refer to diplomacy as the game that really it altered my uh my my view of things. Now, probably most played when it comes to and most sort of memorable experiences were probably Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah. But I think uh diplomacy to me, I was introduced to it um in the 90s. I was like a game store kid. So you know, I'd I would uh get out of school, ride my bike over to the game store and hang out at the game store until my parents came and picked me up, basically. That was what I did. And uh I remember uh someone at the store brought in diplomacy and we and we played it once. And it was the first time I played a game where I was like, Oh, there's more going on here than what's on the board. Like yeah, it and it really changed my view of what a game can do and what and the types of experiences games can cultivate in a very unique way. Like, and so I always remember those, you know, it's like running like me and my my friend Matt, you know, running around the corner so no one could hear us and like talking and like strategizing all those things.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

It's just yeah, what we're gonna do, we're gonna really shaft in how we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Exactly right, exactly right. And then and then, yeah, so it just creates these really cool moments and it and it like I said, it changes what you know. When growing up, you think of board games like we you know, I played like Risk and Clue and all those like classic, you know, family games and stuff like that. Um, and those definitely have like you know, uh a space uh in our hobby. But then when you start playing games that kind of bring the experience above the board, I I think it really creates some magical moments. And so that's the one I kind of go to, but I I'm an omni gamer, so I basically like it's I I very much like have this um sort of vibe of like whatever I play recently is like my most favorite thing until I play the next thing because I because I really do enjoy it all. Uh I can relate. And so um, I'm trying to stall more so I can continue. If I has his answer now, he can go ahead and start his um.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Keep talking, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah, no, I I have the same, I have like you know, stock answers that haven't changed in a while. But like, yeah, most played for sure Lords of Waterdeep. I've I've played that.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Yeah, it's a classic game.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Not just in person, but on the phone, like I I would say hundreds of times. Um, but I would say my favorite game, you know, oddly enough is Stone Age.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Um, and that one, it just kind of you know holds a um a spot in my heart, I think, because that was the first game where I was I was getting into board games more, yeah. And I looked at it and and I, you know, I don't know if you've seen that Zach Alfinakis like meme with all the numbers going through the code.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Like I would say, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's so that's the first game I was playing, and I was like, oh, I get it. I get the numbers behind it, and I get all of the rules that's behind it. I think I can do this, and that really kind of set me off on trying to be a game designer and a game producer.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, amazing. That's cool. See, I don't really have that thought. I I just go, cool, that was fun. Let's play the next one.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

I've always I've always had like a tinkerer brain like trying to see why things are a certain way and how they can be improved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

What's yours, GP?

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Um, my favorite game is Too Many Bones uh by Chip Theory Games. I adore this game. I saw the silliness of the game and the fact that it just creates this this condensed adventure. Uh in in basically depends on how long the the tyrant you go up to could be four, five, six hours, it could be longer. Um, but you could just in it, and when you're done, you're like, oh, that was just amazing, and you can pack it away without being this long drawn-out campaign. Yeah um it's so weird though, the IP is is just it's it's just very strange. It's he plays these uh kind of characters called Gearlocks, and they're like these fantasy goblins. Um and and the way that you you kind of build them up, um, it's like a dice RPG, dice building, and you literally build them and spec them into different paths, and every character is uniquely asymmetrical, different difference, and and it's just a fun puzzle to kick off with, yeah. Have you guys played it?

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I I think I played it one time at a convention, uh probably one of the BGG cons uh I played it. So I'm I'm uh probably right around when it first came out, which was uh several years ago at this point.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

So yeah, yeah. It's nearly 10 years old now. Actually, I think it is 10 years old. It literally had its 10th anniversary.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

So maybe not right when it came out, but a year or two after it came out.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Okay, and that's the game with the chest, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yes, it's not the trove chest, yes. Right. I do own that thing. Um which just is basically, it just means it stays in a Kalak shelf. It never gonna move it. It's it's just full of neoprene and poker chips, right? And God knows where else. It's just so heavy. Um, yeah, I don't know. It's just I've gone completely mad on that game. Um I I I like it in collects it quite a range of games. I like heavy heroes, like Vitello Serders, um, I like uh like Anachrony and and things like from Mind Clash games. So pretty much there. But I like all sorts of things, like you, Chris. I'm an omni-game nut. I like if something's there and it's light, medium, or heavy, and it just tickles the brain. And if it does like, I go, ooh, that's clever. And then I'm like, that's really cool. I'm in it, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah, I mean, I I love that I love this hobby, like you know, all three of us have you know, sort of different answers, and and I'm sure some people would would disagree vehemently with with with the reason why we like these things or those things, but but for me, that's kind of like the the magic of it. And it yeah, you know, when when I was I don't want to get too in the weeds with uh backstory, but you know, I was when I was uh the game development team lead back at Funko Games and in Force Present, um, you know, we would bring in designers and we would interview them for positions for contract positions or whatever. And my my go-to like one-to punch was I was like, I would always ask people what their least favorite game was, and then I would ask them why they think that's someone's favorite game, and just to see kind of how their gears spin and see how they look at things from different perspectives, because it's like you know, I you describing too many bones, you said you know the story is silly, but it's like but you like it, and and some people might think it's silly and they hate it for that reason. But like that's okay. Yeah, you know, the same thing with diplomacy is like I describe this game, and like I'm like, hey, all the all the the strategy happens away from the table, and there's people that hate that. There's a lot of Euro gamers that like they don't want that, they want the strategy to be in front of them, they want it to be like this. Yeah, so I don't know. I think it's really compelling and it's a testament to our hobby and why I think it has so much longevity is that there's so many different things to latch on to.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah, it's it's the beauty of everyone's right or wrong, right? It's like everyone's got an opinion on things, and and and we sometimes like games that we know that we shouldn't like. I don't know why I find that fun, but I found that really fun. And you know, it just releases the the chemicals in your brain, whatever it does. Uh you like what you like, man, and that's cool. Yeah I think that's the beauty. You're right. There's so much variety, there's so much choice in this hobby. So, you know, you're gonna find something, even if you didn't like something, you're gonna find something you love.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

One of the one of my famous quotes from a from a from someone who had just played one of uh a game, a game that I helped design was someone had played Texas Chainsaw Massacre at Gen Con. Yeah, and this guy comes up to me, super excited. He had just played, like they had a very, very close like uh loss basically in Leatherface, it ended up killing everyone. And he's like, Oh my god, I love this game. I don't know if it's any fun, but I love it. It's like just that it goes, cool, I guess. Yeah, as long as you enjoyed it. That's like that's the main thing. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

So that's

PHASE B: ECHOBOUND ADVENTURES

SPEAKER_02 13:27

amazing. Yeah, let's uh let's get into it, shall we? Let's let's talk about Echo Bound adventures. So what's the elevator pitch? Like, bring it to life for me. What's what's it all about, guys? Who was the guy?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Uh I mean, I would say that it's uh it's a cooperative pulp adventure game, and uh you're basically playing a steward, which is uh uh multiversal explorer that's investigating uh strange worlds. Okay, and we're not there to conquer the world, we're not there to you know um necessarily fight enemies, but we're there to explore, um, get information, ask questions, and then try to help the people in those worlds.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Okay. And these worlds are like the echoes, I'm assuming, that kind of world. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Are they like dimensions or kind of so it it takes place in like an alternate history 1930s? And so it in in our in our universe, um, sort of the the people in the world, our world believe that they're sort of the center, and that these that uh these other dimensions echo out from the center point, um, and then you know, uh to infinity. And the farther you get from the center, the more things have deviated from from the core sort of world that we come from. And so things get more strange and and uh more curious as as you go out. And so um really it comes down to like in our in the world that they live in, people don't determine know there's other dimensions. They're part of this this kind of secret society called the Penrose Society that on the outside is just sort of this like research and and sort of uh institute for scientists and and thinkers in sort of the salon era of the 1930s. Um, but behind the scenes, uh we know that we're part of this secret group that goes to other dimensions and learns things and then hopefully brings it back to our earth and makes things better and advances technology here. So it's kind of like a mix uh of sort of a little bit of fantasy, has some magic elements with sci-fi elements. Um I think Isaias coined the term uh deco punk. Uh so sort of this art, so it's kind of like a little bit past steampunk, yeah, but not quite into like you know modern technology. So it really fits in a in an area that we feel is um ripe for story, ripe for adventure. You know, we we wanted to kind of create a game about sort of this age of exploration, but also give a unique twist that felt fresh and exciting and um kind of create a new universe and a new IP based around that. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Okay, sounds cool. Sounds

Where did the origins of Echobound Adventures come from?

SPEAKER_02 16:07

cool. So, where did this idea originate from then? So, so where's the origin story for Echo Ban Adventures? Where did it all start?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

So the initial kernel for for the game design came from just some some conversations, lunchtime conversations I would have with other designers and and um uh our friend uh David Aizzi and I kind of got together and we're talking about exploration games. And one of David's things is like he likes to ask questions and just to like he's the type of guy where he's like he wants to ask you if a hot dog is a sandwich and just debate with you for like half an hour about whether it is or whether it's not. Yeah, you know, there's all sorts of things like that. Like uh and so one of the things we were talking about is these exploration games, uh games that we really love, games like Seven of the Continent, and and and those the style of like big, massive coffin box games. Uh it's like, well, are we really exploring if we the map is already there? Like like the map exists. Can we really be exploring it if it's already exists? And so it just kind of became this this thought process of like, okay, well, what would we do? How could we make an exploration game that that that scratches your specific, you know, your argument about what an exploration game needs to be? Can we can we try to make that? And so we talked about mechanics for that and and that type of thing. Um, and that's some that was an exercise that we used to do a lot at my previous studio too, which is like, you know, we we'd ask a question that we felt like was like a definite, like all games must be this, or all, you know, every game must have this. And then we would say, okay, well, like how can we design a game that doesn't do that? Yeah. And that was just kind of a thought, a thought exercise. And so this came the mechanics from this came from from that sort of idea. Um, and then we also just loved sort of at the time we were making like an Indiana Jones game, and so we were really immersed in this pulp, like Indiana Jones world and stuff, and so we really liked that sort of uh setting. Um, and so that's kind of like the the kernel of the idea, and then um it kind of was stored, you know, we didn't really do anything with it, it was kind of like in the back burner. And then Open Owl, Brendan and Open Owl approached us uh when we when we first started Tempest and said, Hey, I'd really love to work with you guys. Uh, you know, you have a catalog of of work that um is pretty substantial, and I really love to see what you guys want to make. And if I could give you sort of the keys, like what would you make? Pitch us your wildest, craziest ideas, you know. And his his only sort of caveat was that it had to be something innovative. And so we ended up pitching him a couple of ideas, and and Echo Bound was was one of them. Um and at the time, Isaiah and I sort of uh got together and started kind of fleshing out like the universe and the world for it, um, and then and then it took it off, you know, a mind of its own. And a lot of like the backstory and like the the the narrative portion of it um was mostly Isaiah's running with that and kind of creating sort of this this universe that was believable, um, but was also something that was kind of unique. Yeah. Um, you know, if you know about our Isaiah S and I's like most recent history, Isaiah has been making these for a long time. For me, I I made it like a self-published game, and then I basically went straight straight to Force Rosan and created the studio to work on games for them. And so a lot of my career has been making games based on other people's IPs, yeah. And I and I was really adamant that this opportunity I wanted to create a fresh IP with you know my collaborators. And so um, you know, that's where you know where Isaiah was kind of brought into the mix. And he, you know, I was like, you know, my mind I was like, maybe it's like steampunk, and then Isaiah's like, okay, but like what else can we do? Yeah, and he had like a whole pitchboard mood board about all these other concepts and ideas, and we kind of like you know honed in on what we thought was cool with all of them, and then from there, um, he kind of ran with the the story and and created the universe.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

That sounds cool. I love the fact that you you try and break the mold, like consistently, like you're not being constrained by this thing, like it's this or it's that, or it's this particular theme. Like, no, actually, I want to go in a different direction. I want to go where I want to go. Screw it. I want to do this, I want to do that. I I love I love that. Yeah, I don't be yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, I think you know, some of my background too. I used to be a game producer at Big Fish Games. I don't know if you've heard of them, but they made uh hidden object puzzle adventure games. Uh mystery case files is like the the biggest one. And that one is a lot of um you know, like an old school adventure game. You would point and click, you had some inventory, um, you would uh interact with the world in that way. So I worked in that stuff for I don't know, six, seven years.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Uh just producing those games, making them better. Um, and when this game came along, I was like, oh, this is like the same thing. It's like an extension of that. And you know, we're building a world, and then we're uh dropping the player in there, and then we're just getting them to poke around, ask questions, gather items, uh, go on quests, do missions, you know. So yeah, it was uh kismet, I guess. I'm doing the same thing that I did, you know, 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

I'll know how to do that. This is my wheelhouse. I could sort this out. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

And there's a lot of stuff that that we don't know how to do, but we're also pretty adamant about like figuring it out, you know, I uh figuring out how to do it. Yeah, so I think that's that's part of it too. Like it's one of those things where if it was easy, I was just mentioning this to Isaiah and Corby's our other are the co-founder as well. And I was just mentioning this to them where it's like, you know, the products that I'm interested in are the ones that seem really difficult, seem impossible. And that's been true my whole career, is it's like I want someone to tell me that it's impossible to do something, and then I want to prove them wrong, which is the same, it comes down to the mechanics, right? Like the same thing I was talking about, where it's like all games must have this. And I was like, Well, I want to prove you wrong. I want to make a game that doesn't do that. Yeah. Um, and you know, so it's sometimes they're successful and sometimes you're not successful. But like that kind of journey is is the thing that really keeps me going.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Yeah. Like when someone tells you you can't do something, you're like, just hold my beer. Like and I'm gonna make sure that it can be done. Yeah. I I resonate with that a lot. So yeah. Nice. I like that. Yeah,

What is the core gameplay loop?

SPEAKER_02 22:23

that's cool. So the mechanisms in the game, like with the gameplay loop, walk me through how how it kind of works. What can I expect when I first um kind of open that box and I'm ready to jump in and crack on my first adventure? What would it kind of look like? How does it as it kind of hang together?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

You want to go, ITS? Okay. So so um so I'll I'll walk through like the so the core experience of the game is it is an exploration uh game. So when you start, we put you in your first adventure. And your first adventure takes place in the in the Zelethi jungle. Um and then uh whenever you play the game, you always combine an environment with a plot. Yeah. And the the plot that comes in the core box is Brash's Brigands, which is a Brash, Alistair Brash is a is a villain who lives in this universe that was a former member of the Petro Society that's gone rogue. And he basically goes to these other worlds to pillage them for goods, brings them back, and sells like these artifacts and and technologies on the black market. So he's a bad guy. Um, one thing I'll I will say about our setting we set out to do is that a lot of games uh in this genre, and a lot of games in general, I feel, are moving more towards like gray and like grim. And like we wanted to create a game that was like, no, no, this is like a Saturday morning cartoon. Like the good guys are good guys, the bad guys are bad guys, you know, and it's like, and not to say that everything's flat, like Alistair Bresh has a backstory, and as you the more you play, the more you learn about it, and all those types of things. But we wanted to kind of create, we wanted to bring it back, like that's why the box is colorful. That's why like we wanted to kind of bring back some hope and some optimism to to the space, because it's like I I'm I can only go through Grimdark so so many times. And I love grim stuff, don't get me wrong, but um, anyways, so so you combine an environment with an antagonist and the plot, right? And so in your core game, you're uh you begin the game and you you're on your first mission, and basically the story of the game is that you are stewards, um, think of them like astronauts. You've been training for years for your first mission, and now you get to go on your first mission, and they're gonna you know send you out, they're gonna have you do some basic tasks, you're gonna cut back, they're gonna test your vitals, make sure everything's good, make sure you know you didn't leave part of your uh body in another dimension or anything like that. You got you're not you know, you're not sick or anything. So you head off on your first mission, and it's kind of this like very like uh small sort of curated experience uh for your first game. Um, and uh you you're given a mission to accomplish in a in a quest. And and in our game, again, we wanted to create the sort of sandbox environment. So generally, um, when you play, it's up to you to choose when you want to end. Your goal is to go in and gain adventure points, and then after the game, you can spend adventure points on the sheet to like unlock other things, right? And fill out the sheet, unlock, unlock story, and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Like a base, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Um, but while you're in the adventure, you can stay for as long as you want. You can try to get as many adventure points as you want. However, the longer you stay, the more the plot works against you. And sort of we have a threat meter and the threat track builds, and eventually Alistair Brash himself could show up and really try to stammer your plans. And so there's a little bit of a risk reward versus like how long do we want to stay? Kind of like extraction style video games, if you've ever played or seen those.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yeah, yeah. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

So, again, trying to create this like sandbox, you know, exploratory world. So you go in, you do your quests. Now, on your turn, it's it's it feels like a classic adventure game. Like we didn't want to reinvent the wheel there. So you have your basic actions, you can move around, you can interact with different um parts of uh the map. Uh you can fight foes if they show up, you can do those types of things. We also have an explore action, which in our game, when you explore, you reveal a random location uh card, okay, and you can put it anywhere on the map. So that's how your map is built, and it's completely random. So when you're playing games, in one game, you know, you might have two villages right next to each other, but in another game, you might have the villages really far apart, and that can cause some different challenges and those types of things. Um, and so that's our way of creating a going back to this initial initial conversation with David, is our our way of creating a map and an environment that's different every time. Um, it also solves another issue that I have with some of these bigger games, which is like when you're done packing it all up and sorting everything back. With our game, when you're done, you take all the locations, you stack them up, you put them back in the box, and you're done. And then you know you shuffle them and deal out for the next game. And so, like in your first experience, again, it's kind of curated, you're gonna go through. Um, we also uh on our map tiles, they'll have uh sites, site icons, which are tied to specific sites. Now, when I go to a site icon, let's say um there is like a little um sort of jungle cat next to a rock, I might go to it and it'll say like B will be the site icon. So when I go to that location and I investigate that little scene, I draw a site card from the site deck that corresponds to that icon. So I look for card B, I reveal it, and that gives us sort of the zoomed-in look of like where I'm at in that setting. But one of the magic tricks that our game does is that those site cards, the ones that are that are marked A, B, C, D, and so on, can change while you play. So you might go to this uh this den of this jungle cat and learn something about it or or put something there. Yeah. And then when you do that, you swap out card B with a card B from this big long index box of cards. Um and that change is permanent. So the next time you play, if you find that location again, you can go there, you can visit it, and you can see what's changed about it, and you can kind of see how things have progressed. It's the same thing when you meet people. There's a lot of NPCs in the jungle that you can meet. And when you meet them the first time, you have an action that says introduce yourself. Once you've introduced yourself, though, they know you and they'll remember you when you come back. Yeah. Um, one of the mysteries of of our game, which I don't want to get into spoilers, but part of the mystery is is these dimensions, how they tie together and how they're connected. Um, but the NPCs will remember you, even though you come back and the environment has changed and other things have changed. And so it's kind of like this system that kind of it remembers your gameplay. So uh so it's has legacy elements, but I hesitate to call it a legacy game because it's it's a little bit different than what people think of. You're not tearing stuff up, you're not doing anything that's like irreversible. Um, and ultimately you're not it's not like a linear path, you know. You might play a dozen games and never introduce yourself to uh the person who lives at the hut. And that's okay too. Again, it's your your experience the way that you want to play it. And so um that's a very meandering explanation of a game that that does a lot a lot, but uh hopefully that kind of gives you an idea of of uh what you're in for. Um, and then one thing that adds another layer, which was really important to me from the beginning, just because again, you know, this is a game that we're making that we want to play. A lot of times, like game designers, especially like in our industry, it there's a lot of like um advice about like don't make a game that you want to play, make games for you know, you're not the the custom the customer. This one is like a game that we're making for ourselves, and we know that if we make a game for ourselves, there's gonna be you know thousands of other people out there that are looking for that same experience. And because we're working with open owl and we're going direct to consumer and and to Kickstarter, like we don't need to appeal to a mass market audience, we can appeal to the people who really love and embrace this style of of experience. Yeah, and so part of the other thing about this game is that as I mentioned at the top, you're you're combining an environment with uh an adversary, a plot. Well, in the Kickstarter, there's gonna we're gonna launch with two expansions. Each expansion comes with another environment and another plot, and they're all interchangeable. So when you play the game, you could play the Jalethy Jungle against Alistair Brash, but you could also bring in Isabella Ironsides instead of Alistair Brash. And playing her has a whole new set of challenges to overcome. And so mechanically, uh it'll change and it'll be different. Um, and that was important to me because I've played a lot of these campaign games, and again, I I love them. They're totally my jam. But you know, you get around to game eight, game nine, game eleven, yeah, and it's like, okay, we've been kind of seeing the same stuff. I was like, oh, well, what if I can still advance the story, but I can bring in some new mechanisms and just try out some new stuff and new strategies and new character build and that sort of thing. Um, and so it that is uh not an elevator pitch unless it's a very tall, tall building or very low basement. Um but it it's an ambit like I said, it's an it's as I said, it's an audacious project, and we're trying to do a lot uh and provide players with something that it feels familiar, it feels like you know these exploration games that have been in the past, but we filed off some some of the rough edges and we've created some new innovations along the way.

The variety & persistence in the gameplay

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Yeah. It sounds really interesting and intriguing. And as you were talking there, the persistence is the word that came to my mind. And he reminded me when I had an interview with Brendan um from Open Owl for many years ago and used to be part of a different podcast called Who's Tunis Anyway? And we got Brendan on for the show and and he talks about persistence uh in the games that he likes to design. So the fact that there's there's this trail of persistence there, it it's kind of it, you know, it makes it makes sense. I'm I'm not saying it's like a road-like, but you're kind of doing a run and you're doing things and you're interacting with things, and those things are staying. Um, like you say, people remember you and you went into that cave, you've done that thing, it's gonna be it's gonna be different the next time you're there. And when you're kind of touching that world and interacting with that world as you go. So, and the fact that you can blend the the adversaries and the environments together to create that variety. I don't know how many combinations are gonna mend up, but if you got the the y and x axis of it, you're probably gonna be like a lot, right? Um, that's awesome. Really cool.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yeah, and then the and the goal with the adversaries in the plots is to make them feel different, right? They have different vibes. Like Alistair Bash is comes with captains and they like to attack you, they like to disrupt your plans. Uh Isabella Ironstein's is uh lane contraptions around the map that can you know zap you, slow you down. Uh, but she also has automatons that are kind of roaming and trying to capture uh specific sites for her. Yeah. Um and then we have the revenant, which is um, you know, the it's basically the revenant is one person that's been split across multiple dimensions.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Uh like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

And so she is um, there's echoes of her throughout the map, which are like ghosts of her, and they're all trying to combine, right? So it's almost like a reverse tower defense, if you think of it. Trying to keep them away from each other so they don't combine and basically create um you know a singularity, like a uh a multiversal explosion.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah, then cross the streams, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

As as we come up with, and we have ideas for other ones too, uh, but as we come up with them, it's like uh, you know, what is the vibe of this uh adversary and what can they bring that's new to the adventure, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yeah, because it's like some people like you know, when they play a game like this, they want to just go and they want to fight things. If you if you like to fight, like Alistair Brash is your guy. He has he has his captains, he has like some unique mechanics when it comes to fighting, that type of thing. But if you really want to, you know, explore the environment and you want to be, I guess, doing less fighting, Isabella, you know, she has her contraptions, you can disarm them, you can kind of work around them. Um, so it's it's very much like a just a different you know experience to to play. And then we let players kind of choose their own path, you know. Um, one of the things uh with with our sort of philosophy on this is that we want players to really have agency like over their experience. And in and one of the things that I've talked about in some of the design diaries on BGG is this idea that like the players are the author of the story. And we wanted to create a game where it's like once this game is in your hands, you are now writing the story. We're not writing it for you. Like we're not, we're not like hand feeding it to you, we're not, we're not like uh forcing you to go on this linear path. It's like it's yours, it's gonna be yours. And from your first game on, you're gonna be having an experience that no one else in the universe has had because it's gonna be uniquely yours. Like it no one else has had that configuration of map tiles and that configuration of of uh events happen and those types of things. And so that was kind of like the the core philosophy. Um, you know, you mentioned roguelikes, and and I think that like, you know, at the time I I was playing some some like uh some video games uh that had some some different elements that I liked. Isaiah, you know, as he mentioned at the top, is like a big video game guy. And so so I think you know, we're trying to take some of these elements from video games like roguelikes and like extraction games and bring them in into this as well. Um and and we do want this ability, this feeling of like when you play, you're advancing something. Even if you don't extract safely, if there's an emergency extraction, you do get to keep you do get to keep some of your adventure points. But like the bigger thing is that like, okay, well, guys, this doesn't really work out how we want it to, but at least we introduced ourselves to this person who offered to help us later. Yeah, and we know next time we come here, if we find them, they'll help us. Like, and so there's those types of things that you're you're building on. And so you never feel like you sat down like to play a game and you play for like 45 minutes, and like at the end, you're worse off than you were when you started. You know, like you've always like made some progress. Like that is the one thing that that I'll say is like another thing about this sort of Saturday morning cartoon vibe is our game is not particularly punishing. Even in our dice system, we sort of have this this dice system that allows you to kind of continue to roll until you succeed. The more you roll, the more the threat meter might raise, and and there is risk involved with that. It's kind of a push-your-luck system. Yeah, I got it. But ultimately, like there's very few times when you when you try attempt something and you you flat out fail. Yeah, it can happen. And there are in our game quick checks, which are like don't allow re-rolls, but for the most part, the game is like it's not like something where you're gonna feel like you know, super bad or like it's like, you know, it's like all this despair. Like things can get tight and things and there is tension for sure, and and and the game is working against you, but you're not gonna like be, you know, like uh it's not gonna crush you. It's not like Elden Ring or something like that, where it's like you're like, how do I possibly beat this thing?

SPEAKER_02 37:23

You know, that's where my head went. I was going to like the the Arkham series or Cthulhu series. I was just like basically breaking your balls constantly.

unknown 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Oh my god, leave me alone.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah, it's uh and and we've talked about like in future expansions, you know, and bringing in some adversaries that do have a little bit more of a of a difficulty curve to it for people who who want that. Yeah, but again, we're trying to create a game that's like for us. And it's like what like like I just said I played Cozy Stickerville, right? Cozy Stickerville, not a particularly ball-breaking game. But it's like you sit down, there's interesting choices, you feel like you're impacting the universe that you know you're living in. And that's what I wanted to get out of this exploration game. I want you to feel like you're finding new stuff, you're discovering new things, and there's exciting moments. Um, and yeah, there's there's challenges along the way. It wouldn't be a game if there wasn't, right? Like our job is to put challenges in your way that you need to overcome, but at the same time, um, you know, it's not gonna feel like a kingdom death monster or something like that. It's gonna it's gonna feel a little bit more breezy.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah, it's it's not a combat first game, you know. Uh, which is there's plenty of those on the market, right? Yeah our core theme is about uh you know curiosity and exploration. It's not necessarily beat them up. If you want to go play that, there's plenty of games like this.

Introducing the Stewards

SPEAKER_01 38:39

I'm sure, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Yeah, yeah. That's fair. So the characters that you inhabit then, for forget what you call them. Um stewards. Stewards, yeah, that's it. So the stewards that you inhabit, um they're basically are they asymmetrical? Like are they there for their flavor? Like who are the characters?

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Yeah, I mean, uh, so they're definitely asymmetrical. And um, you know, Chris mention mentioned our dice check system. So at a very you know, base level, um, they have different levels of dice on the different attributes, you know, right? They have uh strength, dexterity, insight, and charisma.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Um, but above that, they have skills that they can equip. And you know, just like Chris was saying, we want players to have some agency over what they do. Each skill is actually double-sided. Uh, so you have one skill on one side, you can flip the card and then put tuck it under the character placard to pick a different skill. And you can imagine you're playing the game and you're unlocking different skills, and you can find a lot of different combos according to how you tuck them under your board uh to do different things. Uh so we have uh four main characters. We have uh Bill Boleum, who is you know the tough guy. He protects protects the team. A lot of his skills are around, you know, fighting uh people, but also protecting his team. So he can move quickly to another person's uh spot to help uh mitigate some of the health that they might lose. Um and then we have Andrea, who is the scientist and she likes to tinker. She's also a physician. Um, so she has you know stuff like drones. Um, she works with a lot of our uh supply uh to to change supply into different things to give the team advantages. Um and then we have Cordelia, who is um, she drives the exploration. So she's um and within the team, there's also kind of uh, you know, who they are in the team, and she's like the heart of the team, right? She's she's a bit younger, she's a bit more optimistic, um, but she's all about exploring. Um and she, you know, happened to have lost her sight when she was uh younger. Um so she actually kind of taps into you know some magic mumbo jumbo, maybe. I don't know. But we're we're discovering that as we play the game, there's there's little um scenes or vignettes of how they're interacting and how they're discovering things about themselves and each other and growing as a team. So she's really about you know building the map, manipulating the map, uh trying to move around the map a lot faster. Uh and then our fourth character is Daiichi uh Nakamura, who is um our uh you know ambassador, we'll say. Uh he's all about culture and morale and charisma. Uh so he is good at uh doing pep talks. So he he raises the morale of his team. Uh he uses a lot of the resource that we call Moxie. So that's a resource that we have. Uh yeah. Uh and uh to basically help the team, you know, raise their raise their willpower or um get you know other other things in the game that have more to do with uh I guess teamwork and keeping the morale. Uh yeah, so those are the the four core characters that we have.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Nice, nice. I like Moxie, it's very 30s, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Yeah.

Creating builds for the Stewards

SPEAKER_00 42:04

And one thing Isaiah mentioned there too is that um is so in our game, when you're playing, you have these sort of characters and you can kind of like play as them. And as you play, you continue to play in the Zelethi jungle, you'll unlock different abilities for these characters. But we wanted to do it in a way that made sense to the story. And so the primary way that you unlock abilities is we have milestone cards, and milestone cards are cards that you you find that you uh in the adventure and you hold on to them and you and you keep them. Um, and they have icons on them, and they will generally allow you to like do certain things, like you might get to a location that has an action that has an icon next to it. Yeah, you can only do that action once you've once you have that milestone card. So these are kind of ways to kind of like check your progress along the way. Well, another thing that milestones do is they unlock character abilities, and so you might be playing a game uh where you know, let's say Isaiah saichi, I'm Cordelia, you're Andrea Faraday, we're playing this game, and we find a milestone icon. That milestone icon might unlock an ability for Bill, who is not currently playing. But when we go to the narrative journal, we get to read the story about why doing the action that got us this milestone has inspired Bill to learn something new or to do something new. And also we see we get to read a little bit about interpersonally how our how our team is growing and coming to know each other a little bit better. And so you get kind of some of the backstory for the characters and and they kind of grow as characters. And then you have characters like uh, you know, Cordelia, who begin as sort of the the scout sort of uh um scout sort of uh leader of exploration. But as you progress through her story, she begins to learn a little bit more about herself and about how some of these premonitions and feelings and senses that she's feeling might have a little bit more uh mystical uh Leanings to them. And as you grow, as you start, you start to learn more about that. The cool thing mechanically is that when you begin the game, the characters usually have a couple different kinds of builds that you can do. Like she can move really fast and she can explore really well. But as you unlock new things, you unlock almost these new archetypes for those characters that allow you to do other types of abilities. And so the the skill system is I'm really, really excited for people to get a chance to take a look at it and see how things combine. Um and then keep in mind that the skills you're learning in Zelethi also work in Nunaru or Cicabia, the other environments. And so you might go to Cicabia, because again, you can play this in any order at any time. You might go to Cicabia and get a skill that's like, oh dang, that skill actually helps me move through dangerous terrain. Now, if you could I want to use this in Zelethi because there's a bunch of dangerous terrain in Zelethi, and this would be like really good there. And so, like, so there is a lot of like that uh discovery that you can have uh between uh environments and and plots as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah, and and there's different actual skill unlocks. So there's character-specific skill cards that you get, but there's environment-specific cards that you can get. So there's people in the jungle that are you know teaching you how to hunt better, or they're teaching you how to, you know, use uh herbs around uh the jungle better. So as you learn these different skills, um, you can kind of mix and match them with your personal skills to create even different combos that you wouldn't have thought of before.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah, that's that's really good. Um it's tickling my brain that um the fact that as you said, you can write your own story and actually you're giving a lot more to these characters where you might have preconceptions where that this is where I think the character goes, or it, you know, it's just this typical burly dude that likes to knock out things, but actually you can play him your way. You can actually spec him into something completely different as you play the story and as it unfolds before you. It's completely different to a friend of mine's got the game. Oh, I did this with him. I went down this road. Um, that that's really intriguing. It's like he's created this toolkit. It's like a toolkit of of stuff. Have fun, guys. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Exactly. Again, it's it's it's about giving players the agency to curate their own experience. Yeah. Um with Bill, I don't know, this isn't quite a spoiler because we haven't made it yet, but the the joke is always like eventually Bill's gonna go to college and he's gonna be he's gonna get he's gonna get a doctorate. And so like that's something that like you know, you know, who knows down the road uh where his character may end up. But um, yeah, that that system is it to me, again, it's one of those things where creating our own IP, it's like we want to have characters that are likable and that you feel have personalities and you feel like and they have connections with each other, like like uh you know, too too often you play these these these styles styles of games, and it's like you have your person and they're kind of like this avatar for something, but you don't ever really get to learn much about them. Yeah, and you especially don't get to see them like uh interact with with one another. Um, it was a mechanic that I I really loved. In um there's a game Artisans of Splendid Vale, um uh that is just an amazing sort of uh experience. Uh if you haven't checked it out, I should definitely check it out. Every character has their own sort of uh narrative book that they look in. It's super compelling game. I think Renegade publishes it. Okay. Um and I forget the I know I think Nikki is the first name. I forget the last name of the designer, but anyway, uh it's a it's a wonderful game, but it really ties into like the interpersonal stuff, and I was like, man, that is so cool. That's what like I wish more games would do that. I wish more games would would have characters that care about one another and and can uplift one another, right? Like, you know, uh Isaiah mentioned that like um you know uh Cordelia is sort of like the heart of the team, she's the youngest, you know, and so you get to learn about like Bill sort of taking uh her under his wing and like really being protective of her and all the types of things. Like I don't know, it's that there's a lot going on in it for people to kind of sink their teeth into, and and hopefully people will um you know allow themselves to kind of like explore how they feel they they want to explore and and and like I said, make those intrinsic goals.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Amazing, amazing.

What was one of the hardest mechanisms to get right in the game?

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Okay, so in terms of your design of this game, what was kind of the one of the hardest mechanisms to try and get right and kind of nail down to get the right balance of it or just to get the right feel. Um, yeah, like you're creating this toolkit for players to basically craft their own stories, etc. So so did you hear any kind of stumbling parts?

SPEAKER_01 48:39

I I we probably have we probably have two different answers.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

I have one. Well, I I I know what mine would be. Yeah, you go first. So for me, I think the biggest challenge with this game in in in as we talked about it, you don't you can you can you understand JP like the experience we're trying to we're trying to cultivate. Yeah, however, like it's not really fair to a player to put them into a world and say, like, okay, like do whatever you want, wherever you want, and then give them no guide rails at all. And so for us, or at least for me, the biggest challenge has been for pacing and for how much like uh hand holding we want to do. As I mentioned, the first time you play in in every environment, um I I will say that the first time you play in every environment, you don't shuffle the location deck and you play with a location, a smaller location. So, like, for example, you play in Delothy Jungle, you start with like 10 location cards, and and we put enough in there that like you can still make choices. There's obviously still things you can you can choose to explore or not explore, but generally most players in their first playthrough are gonna get the little seeds for most of the main quest lines. Every every environment has like a couple main sort of quest lines and then side quests, right? But you'll at least get like the start of the main quest lines, so you kind of have like a little bit of a sense of where you want to go. But we had a lot of conversations about like about that and about how like you know, about how quickly uh we wanted to pull away the guardrails and let players just like play the game the way we intended, which is just like pure exploration. For me personally, I'm very calm, I'm actually kind of comfortable jumping into a game with no guardrails, but I play with enough people to know that like that's not a very common personality trait, and so like that has been a real challenge, and we're still working on it, right? We're still testing um you know the expansions and we're still but we're getting playthroughs and and we're still collecting all this feedback, and uh, it's something that we're gonna constantly like be iterating on. Um but you know, my in my previous studio, our creative director there, we we were making um the an Avatar the Last Airbender game called Crossroads of Destiny, and I remember him like really hammering Homeless Idea where he's like, How fast am I getting to a point where no one else on the planet has gotten to that point or experienced that thing? And that was like a because that in that game is also sort of this branching narrative, right? Uh uh that we have in that game. And we had a really it was really like on rails, and he's like, Yeah, but like if at the end of this I'm always going to the same spot, like well, so is everyone else. Like, you know, there's 10,000 other people that bought this game, they're all then ended up there too. And and so, like, how fast can we get to a state where you're creating something unique? And uh in our game, you can we can do it almost immediately, but that was a big challenge, right? Like, I I I feel like uh at one point we were gonna do the curated deck where it was like not shuffled, and then I was probably really arguing against it for a long time, and I was like, no, screw that, we have to shuffle it. But then I then eventually I conceded, I was like, okay, but like it would suck to not you know find this, this, or this until like your eighth game. Yeah, yeah. So like you know, that's too long. So that's kind of something that we're looking at as it stands right now. It because people ask us like how much play time can you get in the core box? Yeah, I think if you if you were to play, you know, and just kind of at your own normal pace, you could get through the main storyline stuff and and probably most of the side quests in around like 15 to 20 sessions. If you just played the main quest, you could probably get there in like 10 to 12, I think, maybe a little bit quicker, depending. Um, but again, we don't know because like it depends on what players do. Yeah, right. That's true. Yeah, yeah. So so uh we're excited to find out exactly what what players uh do with it. So that's my answer. I see it's what what is your gonna make? I mean, surprisingly, it's the same.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

It's uh yeah, and I think um, yeah, Chris started like full sandbox, right? And I was like, no, we gotta we gotta really tighten the scope. And I think just through iteration and like months of working on this, we kind of settled on this like uh happy middle ground of like we're we're really gonna kind of focus a little bit. So you meet the main NPCs, you get the you know, two main story points of the uh environment, and then what's going on with the overall story back at our center point or headquarters. Okay. Um so we kind of it I called it it's a reverse funnel, right? You kind of want you start with a little bit of information, and then as you go, you get introduced to more and more. And then after your first introductory game, like uh we you know, we give you 24 more location tiles, and there's a bunch of more sites to uncover, and there's a whole new event deck that goes in. Uh, so it's really kind of trying to teach you a little bit um not just how to play, but the story of what's happening. And then beyond how you start the game, a lot of it, the iteration was on the quest pace, right? Because um, if you think a discrete game, we wanted to make it um not last hours and hours. We wanted somewhere, you know, in the sweet spot of like 45 minutes to an hour, something that's a a reasonable evening for a person, right? For the average person. And so we wanted to make sure that you, as you're playing these games, it didn't feel like, oh, this is gonna take like seven games to you know create this perfect location map and then uh engineer the circumstances we need to complete this quest. So we, you know, we went through a lot, a big process of like cutting the quest down of like, okay, this would be great in a video game where you had you know 60 hours to play, uh, but we're playing a board game and we want to feel like great progression after the 45 minutes we play. And next time we play, we want to get a quest that's achievable. And you look at it and be like, okay, guys, let's focus on this. We can do this uh within the next 45 minutes we play, and we're gonna get all of this stuff if we finish this quest. So that was a that was a I guess an awakening at some point where like we're trying to design this grandiose game, but really we want to like you know narrow it down a little bit so it feels more rewarding as you're stepping through the quests and the missions.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Yeah. It's definitely more attractive to me. Um, because like for campaign games, personally, I love the idea of them. I love like thinking, oh, it's gonna be great big boxing, big adventure. Look how many hours I can lose myself in this thing. Yeah, um, and a lot of the time is you know, two, three hours a session to kind of get through this dramatic thing and this thing happens or whatever. And and no, you you the setup time and the tear down and all of that kind of gets factored in. And you get to the point where your ninth play or 10th play or whatever, and you're questioning your life choices, and you're going, Oh, I've got this, that tonight, oh, I've got to set that up, and and I can't be bothered. And I just it kind of erodes the fun out of it. It it takes me out of the game. It it just, yeah, the fact the fact that you can kind of curate this adventure and quickly get it to the table, 45 minutes to an hour to play a session and achieve something. And actually, I'm excited to get back to base because I want my adventure points and I want to unlock this skill line or the skill tree. And this is great. And then next time I get to kind of put it into action, right? And I'll know I'm at this NPC, and and and if it's got, and I'm assumed, it's got all side quests there over here, and you know, lots of distraction points and that you're gonna stumble on, then yeah, I think that's gonna keep you wanting to come back and and play even more, right? And and if the set on teardown is not dramatic, which it sounds like it's gonna be uh a lot easier, then then why not, right? Put it on whilst your your partner is watching you know television for an hour and I go, I'm gonna go and do an adventure. See you later.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Yeah, that's exactly right. And and and like I said, like um you know, it it I I think I played this past weekend, we we finally got our our um our prototype samples in. Um and I played this past weekend with uh a couple of my friends who um they had played a very early version, but they had but they hadn't played a recent version. And I think I I taught them the you know the the new mechanisms, and I think we played through two adventures in like two and a half hours, something like that, you know, with with setup and and and teaching them and stuff, you know, and and I think if we were to play again, you know, I really do think it's like 45 to to an hour for a session. Yeah. Um but yeah, and hopefully, you know, like I said, if we're doing our job right, it's like even though you're exploring it and it's random and all it's all these things, uh, hopefully there's enough there that you'll always feel like you left the session like accomplishing something. Yeah, you've done you've done some good in the world. Yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Yeah, no, speak speaking of science quests, you know, when we do when we did start like the world, we thought in terms of like what are you know five main quest lines? And then what are three um side quests that are just kind of silly? You know, they might lead you somewhere, they might not, you know, but let's add you know, three quest lines that are just you know weird. Um we thought, okay, what's one or two quest lines that are a bit more meta? It's like if you were to step back and look at all of these adventures separately, uh you could take this quest line and be like, oh, everything's actually kind of interconnected. Like there's there's something about uh you know the thomic energy or how consciousness kind of lives through the different people within these uh different dimensions and stuff. So we we really try to design it so that you know you could just get lost in the world if you wanted to, but at the same time, we have very specific quests that if like if you just want to finish the campaign, here's your quest that's gonna finish the campaign for you. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Sounds really good, sounds really fun.

What are the design team excited to learn about the game?

SPEAKER_02 58:35

Um, I'm out of questions, guys. So is there anything you want to cover in the game that you haven't already or talk about? Um now's your time. Speak away.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Is there anything I want to cover in the game?

SPEAKER_02 58:48

Yeah, is anything we're not talked about?

SPEAKER_00 58:50

I don't know if there's anything uh specific. I think I I'm really excited to see to have people see more. And you know, it's one of those things where uh you know, we've tested the game a lot. We've we've played it, you know, an inordinate amount of times. Um, but every time you with a game like this, every time you play with a different group, they're gonna experience it differently, they're gonna see things differently. And you know, we've seen some groups who like who uh I they don't they don't they won't they don't say this, but you get the sense that like they there's too much reading in the game. Okay, and then you get other folks who like do voices when they're reading and do like all that sort of thing, you know, they're like and so I I'm just really curious to start to see people how they're interacting with it and knowing that like uh with a game like this, um you know, there might be things that that we didn't get right, or you know, we talked about pacing, like maybe like the 10 locations for the starting game, like maybe we should have done 12 or 15, or I don't know. But like I'm really excited to get people in the world exploring this because it's like because of the um how ambitious this project is. Uh, you know, I I remember that there's an old quote from Rob Daviio, who I I was talking, uh he was talking to us about about playtesting games and stuff like that. And he's like, he's like, you're never going to play test enough. Like when you're the what his quote is when their gate the day your game is released, more people will play it than you had play tests.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

Yeah, very true.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

And with a game like this, I'm like, man, like I'm really excited to see how people experience this. And like, you know, like I want to hear the stories about the people who like who went on this side, who totally missed the main quest that went on the side quest. I want to hear the story, like I want to hear all of this, and and hopefully I think we create an experience that that unlike the Texas Chiefs of Massacre game, will be fun for people. Uh but but I'm just so curious to see what people do, right? Because it's like it's really this this it's strange as a designer to make something that I'm like once this is out of my hands, it's gonna become something completely different that I have almost no agency over.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

Yeah, it's completely theirs, right? And now they're taking it on, and who knows what they're gonna cray out of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

Yeah, like I like you know, I I want to see how much people mix and match. I want to see like how often people, you know, because we we we talked about this where it's like you could play your first game and then never step foot in the jungle again and go straight to the Arctic ice fields if you have that expansion, and and there's nothing to stop you from doing that. Like, I want to know about people that do that. Like, I don't know. I'm I'm just very excited. You know, this has been uh a few years of of work for us. Um, and and Brendan and OpenL have been tremendous partners along the way. I don't think there's anyone else that we could have or would have wanted to do this game with. Yeah. Um, you know, you talked a lot about what you talked previously about when you interviewed Brendan, like a lot of his sensibilities are similar to ours. Yeah, you know, and like I said, his his only ask, he's like, I want you guys to pitch me some games you're excited about. My his only ask was it's like they gotta be innovative, they gotta feel fresh, and and he's really challenged us at every step to to do that. And you know, from a studio that that made a lot of games that were, you know, we tried to make we try to even and I think Echo Bowen is is accessible, is accessible, but you know, our previous studio, we made a lot of these IP games, and and we always strive to make the best game that we could fit in the box. Yeah, but sometimes you had to cut corners because you're you're dealing with mass market prices and all these things. But this game is like truly like we get to do everything that we we want to do, we get to do. Yeah, and and it's exciting and it's scary and it's thrilling, and uh yeah, I just can't I just can't wait for people to get their hands on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Amazing, amazing. Isaiah is anything else to add? That's Chris Covidow.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Yeah, I think I think that's uh that's got it. I mean, and I just want to say we're always learning, right? So like Chris said, once people start, once it's in the wild, we're gonna start, we're listening. And we're you know, the next expansions we're gonna adjust. Um, but that's that's just a part of game design and game definition, right? It's iteration. You just go and learn and do it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Amazing, amazing. Right, guys.

Thanking Chris & Isaias

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

I think we're there. I think we're wrapping up, right? Um, I just thank you for so much for jumping on the show and talking about Echo Band. I'm excited for this now. Now you've you've kind of created this world and and painting the pictures for me. I I'm loving what I'm hearing. I'm loving what you're doing to twist this genre up and make it uh a more of a persistent world where everything is different every time you play it. I'm very intrigued around this game. So I'm sure a lot of the listeners and watchers uh are kind of joining in alongside. So but I think by the time this this uh is kind of released, I think the crowdfunding campaign will either be live or maybe about to be live, but but check out the show notes where the links will all be there for you to check out so you can see what it's all about. So thank you, Isaiah. Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

Thank you. Thanks much, AP. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

No worries. Thanks,

PHASE C: THE LAST PLAY

SPEAKER_02 1:04:02

guys. Well, there we have it. That was Echo Bound Adventures. And yeah, thank you again, Chris and Isaiah, for giving up your time to talk to me about the game. I really, really intrigued to see and learn more about it as the the crowdfunding campaign unfolds. So, yeah, if you've enjoyed the show and you enjoy uh these guest episodes, then please, please, please um like, share, comment, and sub. You know, for a small channel, it makes a massive, massive difference. And uh I just you know I love you for it. So thank you if you do that. Um if you want to support the show even further, we have Coffee, which is our crowdfunding platform. And if you want to send us a few quid, it really goes towards keeping the show uh alive and keeping it going and allows us to upgrade our equipment and uh you know, visuals, audios, all that lovely stuff. And uh yeah, if you want to kind of engage on the socials, we're on Facebook, we're on Instagram, and of course we've got our own Discord uh server. So yeah, if you want to jump in there, we've got a friendly community that's building and we just love chatting about colourboard. But other than that, all that'll say pretty much is you only grow old and we need to stop playing. Take care, bye bye.