OPENING

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There's something magical about railways, the routes, the stories, and then the people that built them. Snowdonia Grand Tour captures all of that and then dares to go bigger.

PHASE A: INTRODUCING JAYA BALDWIN

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hi everybody, it's uh JB here from the Just Play podcast, and I've got another special episode which is a Just Play with Others, and I've got Jaya Baldwin from Naylor Games, and we're here to talk about the awesome Snowdonio and Snowdonio Grand Tour. So let's waste no time and flick over and say hello to Jaya. Hello, mate. How are you doing? Hello, I'm good. Thank you. How are you? I am great after probably the seventh intro that we've just done. That's the magic, the magic of editing. It all looks sort of semi-flawless, but uh he's he's lying, Dave.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

You're the first and only time this has happened.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Thanks, mate. Five pounds is winging its way over to you as we speak. But yeah, how how have you been, buddy? You've been doing good?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Good, thank you. Yeah, yeah. Um, just about surviving the intense heat that we've got going on at the moment. Um, no, things have been well. Uh, we've just obviously about a month ago now, but we've had UKG recently, which went really well. Um, and yeah, just been very busy since, just because UKG is always quite a disruptive period for any games related company. So it's just always there's quite a nice that month afterwards is always quite nice because it's sort of like great, that's that's the decks cleared of of those short-term things. We can just plow straight on now with getting lots done, which we've been doing. So it's been really nice to just get stuck into the work like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Absolutely, absolutely. Get back into the fray, which is uh what what we want you to do. Because they're good for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah, as much as you love us talking about games, I'm sure you'd actually quite like to play them.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Um, but I do I do like talking about them, as many of other citizens will know. Uh, like to you know, wax lyrical about games all the time.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

But um, I think I don't know what percentage of the fun it is, but I think a meaningful percentage of the fun of games is the discussion that happens around them as well. Because that's often when you you deepen things, you know. You can play a game like a hundred times, but it's often in the discussion with someone else where you suddenly have that click moment of oh, you do that? Oh, I should be doing that. Uh whatever it might be.

What was the last game Jaya has Just Played?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

So, what I like to do, Jaya, is anyone that comes on uh as a guest onto the show. I like to learn a little bit more about the guest um before we kind of get into the uh the the meat of the episode and it keeps the listeners in suspense a little bit before we jump in. But that's what chapters are for. People can skip ahead.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

So if you don't want to get to know me, I won't be offended.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Please go ahead. If you go, I don't care, I just want to learn about Snowdonia. Skip ahead, it's there, right? But if you want to learn a bit more about Jaya um the person, um then stick around because it's always good fun. I'd like to know first, mate, what um have you just played recently and what's been hit the table?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Great question. Um, the things hitting the table at the moment, uh mainly it's Slay the Spire, the board game. Um, that's the kind of office favorite. Um, me and James uh play a lot of that together. Yeah. Um, and we're we're real sweaty tryhards, so we we play that at you know, maximum or close to maximum difficulty.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Oh, you're in the high ascension levels, are you?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Whenever we can, yeah, yeah. We've sort of settled on a sort of hybrid of a couple of the top level things mixed and matched for time reason. So yeah, we generally don't play uh well, actually, no, I won't say too much because actually there are things in that game to be discovered, um, and it's nice to discover them. But yes, yeah, uh great game, would recommend to anyone, even if you haven't played the video game, to be honest. Um, brilliant. And then roguelike deck builder itch is following me because in my solo time I've been playing a little bit of paperback adventures.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Um, which if you've come across that, I know I know of it, never played it, but it's always sat there going, I should probably check this out because this is where you you play as characters, right? But you're creating words, but it's a deck building game with word letters and things. Is that right? Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah yeah, yeah. So the the the premise is a little abstract. I think the idea is you are the character of an author who is going through writer's block, and so she doesn't know what to write next. The way it works is that you go through three sort of chapters, yeah, and each chapter is two fights, and so I think kind of narratively, because the fights are against completely random things, you might be fighting a shark, you might be fighting a handsome lover, you might be fighting a mad scientist, and so I think the idea is she's just sort of throwing the kitchen sink of just ideas at the character to see what might happen. Um, but in gameplay terms, it's a similar premise to if you're familiar with roguelike deck builders as a structure, you drawing a hand of cards each turn, using you know attack and block to try to react to an enemy that's changing its behaviors. Um, but the key gimmick is that yes, your cards all have letters on them, and if you wish to actually gain the benefit of them, you have to spell a word with it.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Um, and so if you like word games as well, that's a bit of a fun mini game. But what's cool is there's a bit more to it than just you play Slave the Spire, but also you're doing words in the sense that the letters have to splay uh one way or the other, so you only get half the symbols on your card. So you're often looking at them going, oh, do I want an attack turn or a defense turn? And then it's the the letter that is on the top of the pile that you get to use the special effect of. And so you're often looking at something, and you might see a word straight away, but then you actually lay it out and you're like, mmm, but that doesn't do exactly what I want. And you get a wild card, which can be any letter you want, but there's yeah, and you get rewarded if you don't use it to get some energy. Anyway, don't get me talking about games I like because I don't shut up, and people are here to listen to Snowdonia. But I just come on, and I'm immediately just pitching other other people's games with like great enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Welcome to Joya's favorites.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Uh but that's that's what I'm that's what I'm enjoying at the moment, JP.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Oh, that's brilliant. No, I'll have to check that out. That sounds pretty cool and unique, and like I've heard of paperbacks, it's by uh Fowers Games, right? And uh and yeah, and uh I I I I like some of his games that I've played before, which is uh Fugitive was one um I've played a lot, and Burgle Brothers um was the other one, which is good fun. But uh yeah, and I'll have to check that one out. That sounds cool.

What is Jaya's favourite game?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Alright, okay. Um, so in terms of your favourite game, then is it one that you've just said one of those, or have you got like a special one that you're like, you know what, that is just my all-time favourite?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

So always a tough question because there are so many games I loved. But if I was to try to narrow it down, I think a game that has had quite a big place in my life is the uh is Arkham Horror the card game. Um obviously that's been going strong for like a decade, and I've been with it pretty much throughout its entire journey. Um, and some very close friends of mine have have been there for that whole thing. And you know, it's easy to just think of it as a game, but then you sort of look back and go, Oh wow, I've been I've been playing that for so long, and that's been a part of so many different stages of one's life. But the game, yeah, the game is brilliant. I find it incredibly inspiring. Having played other games that fit in a similar genre, like a Gloomhaven isn't exactly the same thing, but you've still got the same idea of campaigns and and all of that. And yeah, Arkham Horror always just takes that one step ahead of the pack for me because of the way it integrates sort of narrative with effects. I think that chaos bag is just a genius way to do to do random. So I love that. And then I think my favorite competitor, I love co-ops in general, huge fan of co-ops, and then I think if I have a I don't know if it's it probably is one of my favorites, yeah. Um, there's a game called Millennium Blades. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, it's pretty niche.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

I I have it's it feels familiar, and I'm trying to think if it's related to some other game that's got blades in the tile, but it's probably not even related to it. Is that tidal blades? No, it's probably something else, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Tidal blades exist, it's yeah, it's nothing related to that.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Okay, no, then no.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Okay, so Millennium Millennium Blades is a game I think everybody should play once, okay, and then you will decide either I only needed to play that once and I never need to do that again, or you will be like me and go, can I play this all the time, please?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Um it's developed by level it was uh made by level 99 games. Um they're a US studio, they do a lot of kind of anime aesthetic things. Uh but Millennium Blades is a effectively it is a simulation of being a trading card game hobbyist. So you start the game with like a starter deck of cards, but it's not a deck, it's it's a sort of it's like eight or nine cards, and the idea is that those are the exciting cards in your deck, the rest of the like filler and chaff is abstracted away to a single deck box card. Um, and then you you will play a basic kind of tournament game with that, but in between the actual playing the card game rounds, you get like a real-time phase where you can go and like buy booster packs um or trade with other players uh to get new cards. Yeah, you can sell you can sell cards you have on like the secondary market that other people could then pick up. You get victory points for assembling like a pretty collection in a binder. So there's like that collector side of it, there's the selling side of it, the playing side of it, the deck building side of it, and you're doing all of this in real time. And the cards aren't like the cards aren't super duper simple. Like some of them have quite a lot of text on them, and you're like, okay, does that does that go in my deck? Does that go? Do I sell that? Do I just what do I do with that? Um, so yeah, it's a real love letter to to card games. And I think for me, as someone who played a lot of trading card games growing up before I kind of discovered board games and realized trading card games have a horrible predatory model, and that board games you can just play with anybody instead of needing to find someone else who's as silly as you are to have blown that much money away. And so I sort of I sort of see it as trading card gameplayer rehab, where it's like, oh, I remember remember the hit and the thrill of that, but without losing your money. And I think the the most genius component is that the um the currency is like you spend one millennium dollar, but the actual component is many bills, yes, uh bits of paper money with a wrapper around them, so you're throwing huge like wads of cash around to pay for cards. So very real. Um, and yeah, it's a really unique and singular experience. So I yeah, definitely check it out.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Excellent. No, I'm gonna definitely that sounds quite unique and meta, and I like that. Um, so yeah, I I I'm I was a fan, probably I'd say, of of kind of competitive card games. I I don't tend to be much anymore for the reasons that you said. I I think I just prefer a more complete experience of I buy it, I know I've got everything pretty much in the box, it works. We have fun with it. Uh I don't have to think about booster packs and this, that, and the other anymore. So I like the fact that it's kind of a game that has a complete experience, but it has that level of trying to chase the the you know the right kind of card um that you that you want to put in there to win those games. Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Okay, well, I'll I'll do that. And it's it's the number of sets it has in it is just insane. Like you don't use you use a fraction of the total number of cards in that box each time you play it. So yeah, anyway, again, I'm talking too much about other things.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

That's fine.

Where did Jaya's design journey start?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Let's let let's spin on forward then to to what people want to know about, I think, which is all about the the world of Snowdonia. But I think just before I do that, um I'd like to kind of know where your design journey started, and and also probably mixed into did your design journey start as you entered the hobby, or is it just something that you picked up recently? Because I'll be honest, uh, I don't fully know. I I first I um kind of heard about yourself, I think was I watched the the gaming rules playthrough through that you did with Tony Board uh Boydell and um and James, um, and you played I think it's the the Stockton map of of Snowdonia, and yeah, and and I I do that oh that's the first kind of um 4A which I think you recorded that a while ago now. I think probably a year or two.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, yeah, it's about a year ago, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

So yeah. What where did it all begin for you, mate?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

What's the yeah, sure, sure. So I'm not really uh yeah, I'm not fully a name on the map at the moment, uh, so so no no expectation for you to have heard of me really, but um started with I started as a little kid, really. Um I just always always loved games, um, and so I remember I have a lot of memories of designing board games even as a small kid. So whether it was little roll and move things or trying to design my own TCG cards, just pencil and stuff. I think the thing I'm proudest of when I look back on it was um it never it never got finished, it never got very far, but it was a full adapt, it was an attempt at a full adaptation of Pokemon Red and Blue Um into a board game. And it used, you know, I drew up a square map of what you know, Route One and Pallet Town and these things, yeah, and certain there were like different shading levels of grass that you'd roll dice in to determine if you got an encounter or not with different rates, and then I used all of my Pokemon TCG collection, and I didn't, I don't think I fully understood the game at this point, but I figured out I figured out a rudimentary like fighting system using the cards, and I figured out like using the mechanics from the video game, I was like, Oh, okay, the lower the HP is, like, that'll affect your die roll to see if you capture it or not. And when I look back on that and think about how old I was, I'm like, actually, that's pretty cool, anyway. Yeah, um, so that's that's sort of where it started, and then it never really manifested as anything professional. I don't think I ever really finished uh a game design or anything like that. I ended up then spending a lot of time in theatre, um, which is another big passion of mine.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Studied drama and theatre studies at uni, but spent a lot of time playing board games. So I'd say uni is where I discovered board games more fully. Um, I ended up doing what every new board gamer does and going from not owning anything to just buying everything inside um because I just got off of TCGs. Smash up was the first uh proper hobby game I found. Um and I was like, wait, this is like the TCGs I like, but it's in one box, and everyone can just play with what's in the box. So that was great. Um, and so board games at Gyres kind of became a thing. Um, and then yeah, through Happenstance ended up working in immersive theatre for a while, which is very interesting. Um, that's like sort of board games and theatre kind of mash together, yeah, where it's like small audiences on your feet, but what you decide to do can change change things. And then through that, met James. Uh, he came and saw the show. We talked for a bit, um, and then I was invited to a birthday party that he was also at, and then we just got chatting, and he yeah, he said he made games and that he was going to Essen with Magnate, um, the first the first game we published, and I was very excited. Um, and I was yeah, brought along to demo, which was lovely. It turned out just by sheer happenstance, I just moved into London. I lived a two-minute walk away from his place, which was just crazy. Oh wow, okay. Um, and so what started out as just like, oh, okay, well, yeah, I'll help you do some playtesting then, why not? Um turned into kind of doing some dev back and forth, and yeah, now it's now it's turned into a job. That's um I love that.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

I love that because that that's just basically your passion shining through and creating an opportunity for you. Um, and I just love stories like that because you know, board board games just it's it's amazing where they can take you. I think if you've got the the passion in in there, like enough to even go, you know what, I'm up for playtesting or demoing or or whatever, and I've done some demoing, you know, in in the past as well, and I've always enjoyed that showing games off to other people and being enthusiastic about you know the experience, the game itself, or whatever. And uh yeah, to to know that that's kind of like you said, like you might say sheer luck, but uh you know, you made that as well because you were passionate. So yeah, it's pretty cool. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah, it's a it's a it's a bit of both. Like you can never deny that luck takes a takes a big part in any career, but yeah, you've got 100%. You've got to have something.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Um

PHASE B: SNOWDONIA & SNOWDONIA GRAND TOUR

SPEAKER_00 17:04

let's talk Snowdia then, pal. Let's let's get into it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

So now let's give the people what they want.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, exactly. If you skip forward, welcome to the episode. And uh But no, I'd I'd like to for those that don't know much about the the the game of Snowdonia, and obviously when you you went to the crowdfunding with with this edition, you've kind of got two versions of the game, right? So you've got the Snowdia and you've got the Snowdia Grand Tour. So what are they? What's the differences? Pitch away.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Sure thing. Uh so yeah, there's there's two products on the campaign. Um, we've got Snowdia Special Edition, which is effectively a new edition of the original Snowdia from 2012. Um, it's got the classic Mount Snowden scenario, um, and then but now on a board. Originally you had a board that was for every scenario that you sort of laid cards on top of and around the edge of. Um, but now every board, sorry, every scenario has its own board. Um to sorry, I should probably actually go back a step for anyone who doesn't know what Snowdonia is. Um it's uh it's a worker placement uh Euro game, effectively. Um and it's it's sort of almost as simple as you can get, but there's a lot of nuance to it. So you only have two workers, you put them all down on action spots, and then all the action spots resolve. You're building a railway, um but it's scenario based, which is what makes it really stand out. So rather than you know, um well, there's a lot of Euro games out there where you're more or less playing a similar game each time. In this, the railway you choose to play on will change a lot of the mechanics um and a lot of the things the way the game plays out. And so the real sort of skill of it is getting familiar with the core system and how the actions work, but then through playing different scenarios, they all test different parts of your knowledge or skill set and how you can adapt. And um, yeah, adaptability is really at the core of the game. In a lot of those other games, it's often more about strategy in Snowdonia. It's often a bit more about clever, canny opportunism. You're looking at what your opponents are doing, you're looking at the opportunities on the boards and going, oh, okay, yeah, even though I'm trying to get this big project done, I'm just gonna snag that thing over there because that'll get me that'll get me long. So I'm getting sidetracked again. Um so so yeah, special edition then is is the core game. Uh, you've got the Mount Snowden board on one side, and on the other side, you have a new scenario called the Stockton and Darlington Railway, which if you've watched that playthrough with with gaming rules, uh we've we've shown off. And um, the Stockton and Darlington Railway is uh sort of it's it's another intro scenario, but it's designed for more experienced Euro gamers. So if you've played a lot of Euro games and are new to Snowdenia, it's possible that the Mount Snowden version might might feel a bit too stripped back for your tastes. Um and if you want a few more knobs to twiddle and bells and whistles, then the uh Stockton and Darlington offers that. Um but uh yeah, so that's that's what you get in the base box, and you get all the core components you need. There's also a solo mode, which is really robust, um, designed by uh David Turchie, David Digby, um, and their team. And um yeah, that's that does a really good job at simulating uh human opponent and how they work. So that's your core box, and then Grand Tour is a much bigger box despite being an expansion, which is a bit unusual. Um, and whereas Special Edition has two scenarios, Grand Tour has 12. Um, so instead of we're instead of one board, you've got six. Um, and that takes you all over the world with scenarios going from you know, there's one or two scenarios which are probably about on par with the ones in the core box, and then you go all the way up to things that might make you start to go, is this a different game? Um at the very far end, with a whole slew of things in between, and um yeah, so you've got the 12 scenarios, and you've also got a campaign mode which you can use to string any four scenarios together uh into a campaign where you're going on a journey um and you have a deck of cards that represents who you are. Yeah, it's not super complicated. 10 card deck, you play as a famous figure from railway history, and then depending on the scenarios you've chosen, you can also acquire souvenirs from your travels that go into your deck and improve it and this on the way. So, yeah, that's a real content cornucopia. Um, so I would generally say if you're just curious and want to dip your toe in the water, check out special edition, and then if you decide you like the system and want to see it explored. Check out Grand Tour.

Why did you make the decision to have a different board for each scenarios

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Absolutely. And I think the thing is with Grand Tour, for those that don't know, is that you've got those additional scenarios. Um, and what you would expect, what I expected when I first heard about it, is that you you're gonna basically add different kinds of cards or things to basically make the the scenarios different. But no, what you've done is actually you've got a different game board for every scenario, right? So if you've got 12 scenarios, you've got, and I think they're probably double-sided um as well, I'd imagine. Um, so you've got all these additional game boards. So what why why did you go down that decision to go, you know what, we're gonna throw in a whole new game board for scenario A and a new one for B and a new one for C and a new one for D. Well, why did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah, sure. Um, so that I think the the seed of that was planted when um James and I played the Australia, uh the Trans-Australia scenario uh designed by Matt Dunstan for the original Snowdonia.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Um, and we laid out all the cards and we replayed it as you do, and I think both of us were just struggling a little bit from an immersion perspective when we're looking at this lush green Welsh mountain board, and we're supposed to be in scorching Australian what you know, scrubland. Yeah, um, and you know, to be clear, like that's not a slight on the original game. I think it's incredibly component efficient, um, it's it's very smart the way it does it. And we thought, well, is there a different way to do this? And I think if it was purely just an aesthetic thing, this would probably be quite indulgent. Um, but the main thing that then excited us about it and excited Tony Boydell, the designer, was that actually if you shift everything onto its own bespoke board rather than just being a straight line of cards around the edge, the design space really starts to open up and you can start to do more experimental uh things with the system than were originally facilitated by cards around the edge. So a basic ex well, not a basic, but just an example would be in the Isle of Wight and Tokyo Metro maps, instead of a single train line, you've got a network. Um, so in the Isle of Wight, there's three separate railways you're building, and in the Tokyo subway, they all there's five of them and they're all interconnecting, and yeah. Um, and that just wouldn't be possible with the original system. So, yeah, it's sort of twofold. It's one, a kind of much greater holistic uh immersive experience, and two, it's a um it opens up a lot more a lot more gameplay design.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, I mean, and to be honest, that's one of the things that attracted me um when I looked at the campaign originally, was because of this, you know, aesthetically and design-wise, the the fact that you've got grand tour, right? I expect to go on a grand tour around the world, and you are, because you you're looking at it. And not only is it like it's not just the oh, this one is is placed in this particular part of the world and that one's placed in that part of the world, and this one's green and this one's brown or whatever. It's actually the art styles you've used as well. Like, for example, I referenced the Isle of White map. Um, maybe if we get a picture of it, I'll show up on for those who are watching on YouTube. But um, yeah, the it's got that kind of old retro, I'm on holiday in in the in the UK from 1960s, seaside kind of vibe to it. And and it just brings, yeah, it just brings that like immersion in. Um, but also you're just looking at something so bloody cool and gorgeous. And then if you flipped, like you say, to the Tokyo one, it's kind of like what you'd expect it to look like, a very metro urban uh style one. And and yeah, it it's just so cool. It's just honestly, I was like, this is cool. Um, I love the fact you've got these different layers and and lenses in it, and uh, and I know you've got a secret in the in the grand tour, because I know in the campaign there's a secret scenario we no one knows. Well, you know, nope, but I do, thankfully.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

It would be a bit of a problem if I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yeah, no, we don't know what it is either. Um, but no, it's it's there, and and I think that's a really cool, cool way of you know for backers too, when you know, when they get that box and they open it out and go, Oh, that's so cool. Um, I'm hoping that's what we get. Uh who knows? We'll we'll see.

The experience in opening the box

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Absolutely, yeah, and um that that that uh just to touch on what you said there about the experience of opening the box, that's very much sort of something we want you to feel with the product as well. Because we've talked about the another thing from the original Snowdia that we were quite quick keen on tweaking, and again, it's something the boards offered, was a much cleaner sort of setup process. Um, with the original Snowdia, there were quite a lot of setup steps to it, and because everything was its own deck of cards and its own bespoke actions um and all these things, there was quite a lot of sort of custom setup to get it to work. But with the boards, you can have all the actions that scenario has just printed onto the board. So that's a whole step up, setup, step eliminated, and all of that. And so we've we're we've designed it as such that you will get the board for the scenario you want, you'll get a tuck box out that looks nice that is represents that scenario, and then um that's it, you're done. Yeah, besides the core components you get from your from your base game. But um, yeah, that's it. So a tuck box and a board um is we is all you need to to get up and get going, which I think is something a lot of scenario games well. Well, hang on, no, I'm not trying to criticize the games. What I mean is a common uh difficulty or complaint that players have with scenario-based games is often, oh well, I know how to play my basic one now. Setting up that other one looks like a lot of work, uh, and they end up missing out on experiences because of that, but also people are busy. It's sometimes just a f to set it up. So we've made that as seamless as possible so that um Yeah, that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Pick the board, pick the box, go for it. That's it. Yeah, amazing, amazing.

How has Tony Boydell been involved in this version?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Um, so you mentioned Tony, obviously, original design of original Snowdonia. I can't remember when the original Snowdonia came out, but it's a while ago now. Um 2012. 2012, okay, yeah. So yeah, good 14 years ago. Um, so Tony's been involved in the the new editions then. So has he been designing all of those scenarios or are they referenced back on older scenarios that were done on the older edition of the game and that have been revamped? So, how how has that all worked? How how much has Tony been involved?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, okay. So Tony's been Tony's been very involved um throughout the throughout the whole process. Um, he hasn't designed all the scenarios. Um we've got a variety of designers involved. In fact, Tony uh I think really wanted to get other people involved because he you know wanted to give other people a chance and and spotlight some people and see what they do with the game. He loves he loves all that sort of thing. So I've designed, for example, I've designed the Stockton and Darlington scenario, um, and I've designed another scenario going into Grand Tour. Um, there's a couple of other guest designers, and two of them are uh designed by Matt Dunstan, which are uh revamps of of older ones. But to actually break it down, we've got two scenarios. The two Matt Dunstan scenarios are are our reprint, uh so to speak, um, with some changes and improvements. Um then we've got the there's a scenario that takes place in uh Darjeeling and Himalaya, uh the Darjeeling and Himalaya scenario, which is an adaptation of a sort of Snowdia-like board game that Tony made uh called Alubari, uh nice cup of tea, um, which is you know, again, similar, but there's been some adaptations to get it to fit into Grand Tour as a Snowdonia scenario. Um, but then yeah, the rest are all original. I would say, I mean, without sitting here and doing maths in front of everyone, Tony's probably designed around half of them brand new.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Um, so so yeah. In total, of the 14 scenarios across the two boxes, 10 of them are completely new, three of them are revamps, and then Mount Snowden is obviously for the preservation of the classic, mostly presented as is.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

It is brilliant. I I love the fact that it's Snowden and I I've actually been on that railway once in my yeah, once in my life. Uh when I was a lot younger, I went up up the railway to Mount Snowden and we walked down. And then recently, I think what two, three years ago, we said, no, I've got I've got to walk up it. That's where the challenges are. I walk up it and then I walk back down. Um, and that was brilliant because we had a lovely, lovely day and the sun was out, pretty much like it is now, maybe less hot, which I think I would have died uh if it was at 30 odd degrees. Um, but yeah, because I think the first time I went up Snowden, it was it was foggy, and it's like you couldn't see anything, it was awful. So, but yeah, when you actually get the views, it's it's a stunning part of the world. Um so I love the fact that you know it's somewhere in in the UK, it's uh you know, and I'm I'm UK based and it's just very recognizable and and yeah, attainable in that

Why do you think Snowdonia has endured as a modern classic?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

way. Um so listen to a question actually. I I asked some of the listeners for for questions when I've got a guest on the show and and and they've chucked me a few. So I'm gonna sprinkle those in in amongst the the chat. So yeah, uh they've asked why do you think that Snowdonia has endured as a modern classic? What is your take on that? What why do you think it's still relevant today?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

That's a great question. Um, I think there's a a couple of reasons. I think probably the primary one is its scenario-based nature. I think genuinely does make it stand out as quite unique. I think you know, you get a couple Euro games that have alternative setups or scenarios, but I think most of the time those are broadly seen as, oh, here's a variant in the back of the rule book you could choose to do, or they are sort of entirely separate games, a bit like you know, you've got Great Western Trail and Great Western Trail New Zealand, I believe it is. New Zealand.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Um I can't remember. Argentina.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Those are often such big departures that they become their own boxes. Um, whereas Snowdonia has always been this core system that you can you can take your core set of skills and then apply it in a bunch of different scenarios. So that's one. Um, and then two, I think, is this really strong ratio of depth of sort of gameplay to how relatively simple the rules are. I think at first I could see a lot of people looking at it and going, oh, you only get two workers, and that's that's sort of that. And okay, there's this thing in a straight line, really. Yeah, oh yeah, pick up cubes, use cubes. But actually, in practice, once you start playing it very quickly, those two actions get you sweating as to where you put everyone. Um, and if you're sacrificing your resources there to go and do that, you're like, oh my goodness. Um, so that's another one. And for me personally, having played a lot of Euro games and sometimes feeling a little bit like I've this isn't again, this isn't really a criticism, it's just a stylistic thing. But I I feel like with some Euro games, I feel like I've sat down and I've played a really fascinating puzzle, but I sort of feel like I played it on my own. Like I sort of sat down next to some friends and we all did Sudoku separately. Um, I mean, more interesting than Sudoku, but but still like separately. And I think I really love how immediately Snowdonia rewards paying attention to what other people are doing. Yeah, and it's not, you know, it's not take that, you're not going, oh aha, I I play the blow up your railways cards, you know, exploding kitten style or anything. It just it just you just can leverage a lot of advantage by paying attention to what other people's incentives are and what they want to do. Um, and I think that's a really fun layer to access. And yeah, the more you play it, the more this seemingly simple design opens up. And I really like those then those that connect back to the scenario bit, yeah. Where you you play a new scenario and you might go, Oh, that's made me interact with this part of the system in a way I've not done before, even though other scenarios won't test this as much, there's elements of that I could take into my regular play somewhere else. And so you get this really nice sense as you go through it all of this sort of building skill basis, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah, I mean, for for those listening and and watching, uh uh trying to paint the picture a little bit as well. It's like in in Snow Don't, you said you're right, because I had this thing and I I sat down to play at the demo uh expo, and right, you got two workers, and I was like, Oh, that's it. It's like, yeah, the two workers, and the third one's in the pub, right? So um I was like, all right, that's helpful. We need to get get him out of the pub. But anyway, um, and you basically put it put your worker onto the column, and on each column you've got A, B, C, D, F, G, right, whatever. And each column is an action. Like, you one is get get stuff, get um the resources and coal and and and iron, and another one is to clear rubble from the track, and another one is to to build track and etc. etc. And he goes on and on. And it until my first go, it like I I realized, oh right, I understand the game, why this is a thing. Because you put you put a worker down and you don't do the action and take the action straight away. So you're just securing a spot, and then everyone else is doing it, and then you secure the next spot, and then you effectively run the engine of the board, and everyone's then in order, running all the A's from top to bottom, all the B's from top to bottom, all the C. So you're programming yourself to do what you want to do, which cannot happen sometimes, and then you go, Oh no, because then you've done that and you've taken that thing. I was gonna plan to do that, and now you've got oh you crap, it's all fallen apart. And it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

This is brilliant, yeah. And I think another part of it, another part of it that a lot of worker placement games don't have is the timing element. Yeah, so in Snowdonia, there's certain things, for example, with excavating, you sort of remove rubble of the track. And if you remove the last rubble from certain spaces on the board, you just get some victory points, which is incredibly efficient because you've not only gained resources in the form of the rubble, you've also scored some victory points without spending anything. But because it's all about because it only matters about removing the last rubble, you often end up with this really interesting situation where you maybe deliberately want to go later in an action or in the middle of an action, because you don't have to place your worker in the first available spot, you could deliberately go later, and so there then you often end up in these really interesting situations where the timing of certain things makes sense, or you can sort of psych people out by going, right? Well, I'll put that worker there. How you know do you do you want to do that? Do you want to do this? Um, and again, I think without being directly aggressive, it just creates really natural interaction. So, yeah, that that timing element's fun.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

100%. And that that that's a genius thing about where yeah, you've got four spaces on on that column to do that action. I'm gonna pick the third one, but I might still be the first one to do it if everyone doesn't go there. Or they tuck in behind me, and I'm expecting I think you're gonna do that because I know that you need to do that. So you're right, it forces you to really pay attention to the other players, um, and especially with the contract cards, right? So one of the actions is to get a contract card, and those contract cards link to um the the action spaces of a to to G or whatever, and and knowing what they do is really important as I found it in my demo game. It's like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna do that and snaffle all of the stock uh reserves, and you're like, crap. If I'd have remembered or thought or saw that or actually paid attention, I wouldn't have gone there because you would have just snapped it, and I've just yeah, and it's it's got that um the I like this of Euro games, it doesn't um hold your hand too much, like it can be it can be punishing like in playing it, and you've got to to realise that going in, but that's not a bad thing. And I think that's uh that's what I want. I want a bit of a teethy euro. I want ones where you know I'm playing against players and and trying to outpsy them or or try to outthink them and and time things in a different way. And and it's also another reason why I like um Tricarion, right, which is not even remotely similar or the same, but the fact that you're trying to program your your actions in a certain sequence and understanding what others are trying to do, and how do you best weave your your timing and sequencing with everyone else trying to do what they want to do? That's the beauty of it. That's the bit that I really came away from that demo going, I get this now, I get why this is a classic, and I get why it's done you know so well, and there's been so many editions of the game, um, you know, from from 2012 onwards, and and yeah, it's just even even the base game, even the core experience just gives you or elicits that feeling. It's it's it's brilliant. I I I I couldn't speak highly uh about it enough, really. And those who've listened to the UK Games Expo episode that I've done is yeah, I was just like this is going to be so fun. So yeah, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I'm I'm really excited for you now. Yeah, I I just I'm thinking, oh, if you've just played one of the simpler scenarios and got all of that out of it, the things you have to discover um as you as you go down the road, um, is is very exciting

How difficult was it to do a murder mystery scenario into the system?

SPEAKER_01 39:41

for sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Well let's talk about another scenario because again, another listener question um from Stuart. Um he's played the is that La Belle Epoch? Is that the yes La Belle La Belle Epoch, yeah. Um which is kind of like a murder mystery um on on a railway. Uh so it's very different. Not building the railway as such, you're you're trying to discover who who'd done it on on the train. So he's asked, like, how hard is it, how was it to incorporate such a different gameplay mode, but still keep it feels of Snowdenia? So it feels like Snowdenia, but it's completely different in terms of what you're trying to do. How hard was that?

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Yeah, so um, I mean, Tony would be the one to give you the the most detailed answer on this because he was the he designed it. Um but he um it was a game he'd had in his mind for a while, and I think he was actually I think it was actually a separate board game originally in his mind. It wasn't Snowdonia. Um but uh the more he looked at it, the more he thought actually this could be uh potentially adapted uh in, and I believe I think the game is called Sleuth, um, which is an older uh deduction murder mystery game that he has managed to take most of the mechanics from and sort of fuse with the Snowdonia system. Um and so I think if I'm if I was to to analyze why I think that marriage uh has has worked, it's because the partially it's just the raw versatility of Snowdia's core system. Yeah, that two workers and action selection engine is really strong, but the reason it but it's not just that because otherwise you'd feel like you might were maybe playing, you know, something else. But a lot of things still map, so you are still excavating, it's just thematically it's now people's luggage that's in the way as you or you know, things like this as you as you go through exactly, and then you know, instead of building a building by paying resources, you're now you know, instead of making a steel bar, you're making someone's dinner, um, or you know, buying them, buying them a cigar or whatever, whatever it might be, and trading that with them for information. Um, and then yeah, the actual deduction layer sort of sits sits on top of it, and you're asking about people's hands, but then those cards, on top of being suspects, can be played to give you a victory point reward at the end, a bit like the more traditional contracts. Yeah, so that creates an interesting trade-off, which Snowia is all about, of ooh, this will get me two victory points for every marker I have in the luggage car. I've got quite a lot of those, but does do I want to let everyone know this person wasn't the murderer? Um, but then maybe as the game goes on, you start to look at what other people are figuring out on their deduction sheets or just what you've intuited, and you go, oh, hang on a second. Actually, I think everyone has seen this card. I've shown it to people at some point. So actually, I can play that. Um, and so even though you don't have some of the key things like the contract cards, they they the the dynamics those generate creep in and in other ways. Um so yeah, you still get that tight action selection. And I think another part of the cool Snowdenia experience is is the sense of a journey or or of building something. You know, you start in one corner with just a little bit of railway and you you build it out as you go all the way along and discover all the stations and things happen. And again, because this is a journey, you're riding the Orion Express, but you are visiting all these different places and certain events are occurring, and by the end of it, you get that same feeling of having travelled, um, of having of having done something. So, yeah, I know that's a maybe a slightly woolly-edged answer, but I don't know, it's cool. That's kind of how it all comes together.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

And this is it, like this this is again, it's it's it's adding something quite unique and different into this grand tour experience. Um, so you think, oh, I wasn't expecting to do a murder mystery whilst whilst playing Snowdonia. Well, you can, uh, because it's in there. Um and and it's just awesome that that you've kind of got that like diversity and experience in in that box. So I'm I'm excited to learn more, you know, what else is in there and dig in. Uh the discovery element. Of that game is going to be brilliant because that's absolutely I wanna do them all. But time is it's gonna take time to do it, but we're gonna play them all. But the beauty of it the game doesn't last you know five hours. It's it's fairly it's fairly like it's straight to the point. You just get on with it and you crack through it and it's uh efficient,

What is Jaya's favourite scenario?

SPEAKER_00 44:19

so yeah. Um do you have a favourite scenario? It's like picking it between your kids, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Okay, that that is tough.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Um I could come up with a viable reason for any of them being the best, but um okay. I maybe this is unfair, but I I did design I did design it, so so I don't know I don't know if it's I don't know if it's favorite favorite, but I do have a real soft spot for the mystery scenario. I have a real soft spot for the mystery scenario. I can't say anything about it, so that's a useless answer.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Right, okay. So you design this the mystery. I think that's good to know. But yeah, but um it's that one, but we'll find out what it is when it lands.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

But I'm very I'm very excited for people to to see that one. So let's let's talk about a different one though. Um I do you know what I really like I really like the Darjeeling and Himalayan scenario actually adapted from um Alibari. It's uh in part because I have personal family ties to India, which is where it takes place. Um that's where my name comes from. I'm quarter Indian, um, and have spent a lot of time there. So for me, that that's kind of nice, but also I like the way that it is like turbo Snowdonia. Um, so one of the most popular scenarios, which I think is brilliant, is the Qinghai Tibet one that's in there, designed by Matt Dunstan. And the core gimmick there is you need oxygen, you've only got two oxygen each turn, and your workers by default will do pretty rubbish versions of the action unless you're spending oxygen on them. So you've got this sort of sense of scarcity, um, and you're like, Oh, well, do I divert all the oxygen into one worker to get them to do a slightly better thing while my other one does not very much at all? Um, and uh G-Ling sort of flips that on its head where you can give your workers chai, like cups of tea, to power them up. And as someone who has played a lot of Snowdonia, some of those power-ups feel crazy. You're like when I was yeah, yeah, when I was first doing it, I was like, oh, there's surely no way this can stay in the game in this way, like, surely this is just gonna snap the arc over its knee, but it doesn't, and so it's it's very fun being able to go, okay. Normally I can pick up nine iron ore slowly and then turn that into three steel bars. Um, but in this scenario with a cup of tea, you can make infinite conversions at a discount if you've got the stuff to pour into it. So it's like, okay, there's 12 iron ore, and I'll have six steel bars, and then I'll pay some tea to lay four track in one turn on top of this other stuff, but but but at the same time, that you don't feel like you have because everyone is capable of these big plays, yeah, and you don't have infinite resources, it's still got that delicious tightness to it and things, so it's sort of yeah, it's suddenly like, oh, we're all super dangerous. Um, so yeah, there you go. That's uh that's a that's one I'm very keen on.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

That's amazing. No, no, I'm excited even more now. I think uh yeah, it's it's just gonna be cool. It's just gonna be cool when that when that uh finally arrives.

How can you get a copy of Snowdonia Special Edition or Grand Tour?

SPEAKER_00 47:36

So so there we go. I think we're we're probably getting towards the end, Joe. Um I I I suppose the question is if people have been listening along and go, you know what, I'm intrigued by this. Maybe I didn't um you know miss the campaign, or maybe, like me, haven't played uh traditional original Snowdonia um completely pass you by. If people are like, actually, I want to I want to look at this, how can they get their hands on it? Com considering your campaign has already been undone.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yes, great question. Uh so the late pledge on the campaign is still open. Um so if you'd like a look, please do go and uh have a look through. Um and if you like the looks of it, you can late pledge. Um if you want to seek out more gameplay, we've mentioned it a couple times, but the gaming rules playthrough um is a good way to get a look at the Stockton and Darlington scenario. Uh components-wise, it's quite prototype, but gameplay-wise, it's it's pretty complete. Um and yeah, if you if you like what you see, get get stuck in. If you just want to dip your toe in, you can just go special edition, or if you want to go for the whole thing in a in a really nice sleeve based on the tickets of the Mount Sudden Railway, jump in and get Grand Tour as well. Um, and yeah, I think I think that's all there is to say on that one, really.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

That's fine. I'll I'll drop the links in the the show notes and stuff. So they'll all be down there somewhere. Uh go and root them out and yeah, go and check it out. And uh I'll also link uh Paul's gaming rules video as well, because uh yeah, Paul's Paul's a friend, so uh yeah, I I jump on his channel uh a fair few times, help him out with other videos and things. So yeah, he lives half hour away from me. So oh does he? Oh yeah, yeah. He's literally down the road. Um so he's a good mate. Um so yeah, awesome.

PHASE C: WHAT'S NEXT FOR NAYLOR GAMES?

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Okay, um, so what's next for you, Jaya? So obviously at Expo, you were you were doing other demos of of other things that wasn't Snowdonor. So what what is next for you, boys?

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Uh so next for me um is I'm mainly working on uh a prototype design of mine. Uh it doesn't even have a name yet, it's just codenamed NG6. It's internal nailer games code name. Um, but it is a real-time dungeon crawler. Basically, if you imagine kind of what's going on in Gloomhaven, but you were doing it all really fast and in real time, that's what this is. Uh so experientially, it often feels a bit more almost like playing an action RPG video game uh or sort of a co-op MMO or something like this. Um, and yeah, that that's been really exciting to get to the table. I think it's probably the most apart from maybe Millennium Blades, it's probably the most complicated real-time game I've played. And I think I've always been thinking, uh, ooh, sure, surely this is just gonna be too Marmite. People will just yeah, this will be too much, but but it doesn't seem to be. It seems to the people find it quite intuitive, um, and and quite exciting and quite different. So um, yeah, very excited to keep working on that to get that out to people. Um, and yeah, couple of other bits going on in the studio in the background that uh secrets. I don't think I can quite talk about yet, but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

That's all good. You you allowed you secrets because that means we've got something else to talk about another time, mate. So uh yeah. Exactly, exactly. So good, so good. Well, no, look, thank thank you, Joe, for your time um for for taking us through um, you know, the story, um, how you got into games and your your favourite games and stuff like that, and also Snowdonia, and and yeah, genuinely excited, you know. I like I say I have backed this myself as a board gamer. Um, so uh, you know, uh it has attracted me to the campaign, and you know, I want to and now having played it, I'm I'm I'm very, very excited to just dive into the goodies of of that grand tour box and even the bass box. And you know, I'm actually looking forward to playing base game Snowdia because start at the beginning and then you know get get get some of the gaming group um you know friends around and let's just see where this thing goes. Let's go on tour.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Let's just uh absolutely and then once you've done it all, you go back to Mount Snowden and go, Oh, I'm looking at this through a completely fresh lens now.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Exactly. Experienced and we know how to push this system to its limits, hopefully, but that's that's what we'll see. But no, thank you very much, mate. I really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

Always thank you, JP. It's been lovely to talk. Thank you.

PHASE D: THE LAST PLAY

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Well, there you have it. There's another um Just Play with Others episode, and thank you, Joe, for for jumping along um and chatting to me all about Snowdonio Grand Tour. It's been awesome. Um, but yeah, if you've liked the episode, then please like, subscribe, comment, uh, review, all of that stuff really helps the podcast move along. And uh also just want to give a shout out and mention to the Discord server. Um, if you fancy jumping on the Discord server, we have a great little community where uh people are just talking about what they've just played. And yeah, if you feel like you want to join along, then hit the older link below. It's all in the show notes, so that's all good. Uh, if you want to support the show further, I'm on coffee and any pounds uh submitted helps to level up the podcast, keeps it running, and all that kind of good stuff. Podcasts aren't um free to kind of keep hosted. So, yeah, anything that helps, I always appreciate it. And those that do, you are bloody fantastic. So thank you so much. Um, but all that's left to say is you only grow old when you stop playing. Take care, everyone.