OPENING

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It all started with Renegade back in 2018 and then evolved into Deckers last year. Now, this year, Deckers has its very first expansion, and I'm about to talk to Ricky Royal to find out more. Welcome to the Just Play podcast. I'm your host, JP, and I'm not currently in my studio today because I'm having garden work done, but that's kind of boring. But what's not boring is I've got a very special guest, and that is Richard Wilkins, aka Ricky Royal. And here he is. Hello, Ricky.

PHASE A: PULL UP A CHAIR

SPEAKER_00 0:38

How are you doing, mate?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Hi hi JP. I'm doing good. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Oh, pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Um what you haven't done with your garden? Oh, you can turn into the garden podcast, but I'm having a new patio uh laid, and I've actually I've actually had to go to a friend's house uh to record because it's quiet here. Whereas whereas normally I'd be at home in my studio, but they're doing work right outside of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

I know you normally have this border with all your um movie movie pictures.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

That's the one, yeah. So I'm sorry you don't get to see that in.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

I know I was gonna I was gonna look through them and ask about them, but now I can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Oh yeah, you'll have to go onto the old episodes and have a look.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

You'll have to just pretend those are your blinds and just happy about those.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, exactly. Or I'll just fade in the background later, but anyway. How have you been, mate? You've been doing good?

SPEAKER_02 1:25

I'm good, good, yeah, yeah, good, good. So I've I've just realized I've picked the squeakiest chair in the house, so that's fine. But I I'm gonna give you um give you some work to do. It's it's all in the preamble. You were saying you don't edit, and I'm like, no, now I'm forcing you to edit because you're gonna edit every single day.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

You'll be bloody editing this, JP. That's what you're saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Well, this is the thing. When I do my videos, I I do I I watch like Paul Grogan, and he's got his his um his camera that's just you know his wall-binded cameras, all these different angles, and it's just one take. One take Grogan, and he does his live paperwork. And then when I do mine, it's like I don't know, for 15 minutes, it's like a hundred takes, you know. All I've got and then all these little rushes I've got to then edit to get it take me forever. So I'm he makes it look if I've got to do it, you've got to do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, he makes it look so easy, and you think, God, anyone can do it, and you go, No, it's it's a skill. Bless it.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Well, this is the thing with those rules videos. I know for them that's that's that's that's a lot of editing. Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there you go. How am I doing? I'm just glad I'm I'm not doing what you're having to do, and I'm just relaxing today. Happy yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

This is relaxing for me though, because it's like uh half an hour off.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Cool, cool.

PHASE B: INTRODUCING RICKY

SPEAKER_00 2:39

So but I'm gonna ask you questions. Um, because I'm gonna basically bombard you with loads and loads of different questions. But I like to start off with my uh kind of interviews with what game have you just played

What have you "Just Played" recently?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

recently? What's hit your table, mate?

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Okay. Well, right now, because I'm sitting by my table, is I've got Sublime Dark just set up, but I've not played it yet. I'm just setting it up. So this is Tristan Hall's um latest game. Um, and the thing it it comes in a lovely black box. I'm gonna show you.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Um please do.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

There's nothing to literally nothing to see.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

That is that is minimalist. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

And I've not read about it, I've not looked at anything, and to be fair, he's not actually he's not revealed a great deal about it. So it's it's one of those little experiences where I've just um I've been so busy. I don't get to play games very often, but when but this is this is like a little treat just to be able to to sit down, to switch off, open the box, I don't know what's coming. I really don't have a clue what's inside, and I'm just setting it out, and I can just relax and just take my time and just look at all the pieces and set it all up and you're like me, see what happens. Yeah, really this is what I like to do.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, yeah, just that's why game, especially new games. It's that whole the unknown or what you go in, especially if you don't know anything about it. I love that. I love that. So yeah, I think it'd be yourself.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Well, this is the thing with what often you you well, there's so many games you you feel that you ought to do your little bit of research first, right? To figure out is this gonna be for me or is it not? Well, I know Tristan and I know every game he's I'm I've probably done a video on every game he's ever made, so I know I'm gonna I kind of feel confident that I'm gonna like it. Yeah, um I know that I well I've opened it up and I could get the idea there's gonna be uh a great deal of storytelling, and yeah, there's always a great lot deal of storytelling in this game. So so I've yeah, that's what I've got set up, but I've not played it yet. Last game I played, um oh golly, I'm looking around, it's probably probably Tristan's ruined path. Oh no, I don't know what it was. It was um um Captain's Chest, um, to boldly go. So was the last game I played like nice to the end. Yeah, and that was that was kind of um that was called kind of more with my designer hat on. So there's two kind of when I play games, there's two kind of two ways of approaching them. This is this is a me time game, or this is uh I'm gonna research this game and understand it and pull it apart. And so because I've kind of changed the way I play now. Um so it's quite because you know, because you see it from a from a different perspective when you start designing games and when you're when you're doing more like what you do, spending a lot of time researching and analysing and reviewing games, talking about games, you start to look at them in a different way, kind of with that work hat on, don't you? Yeah, so it's nice just to be able to just take that off and just share a little bit with a game and remember what it was like. So I'm doing that right now.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah, yeah. It's like just go back to how it used to be where I just had fun and not over worrying about like figuring it out. Just how does it work? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just I'll just play the game and see if it's fun or not. Simple as that.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah, but you kind of do, you kinda yeah, I feel it. I always said it was when um I I didn't want it to become work, which it really isn't, you know. It's still it's every everything of what I'm doing is a hobby, and it still is very much a hobby. And if I get the slightest inclination that it's not, I kind of have to check myself and go, yeah, what you're doing? So just go do something else, yeah, put it down, come back when you're enjoying it again. Because if it feels like work, yeah, then that's that's gone off a little bit too too far. But um, but we we but well yeah, yeah, it's it's nice to sorry, I'm I'm just joking my dog now. My dog's come to say hello, so he's gonna be making your editing job a lot worse.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

No, it's fine, we're gonna keep him once we're gonna breathing down the mic. What's his name?

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Um uh Dixie. This is Dixie. Yeah, yeah. Go lie down. Go lie down. He's a good boy, he's a good boy. Yeah, um, it's because I'm talking, so he wants my attention. Yeah, is that yeah, exactly. Um, Seti, I played recently, that was good. Um, I don't often play a a Euro game, but um yeah, that was good. Um I'm playing a lot of Forest Shuffle. Um, so that's a game I've been playing recently. So that's one that kee I keep coming back to. But multiplayer, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Um so because I don't get to play multiplayer very often. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah, you do a lot of solo, right? That's kind of the vibe.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But when I get a chance to step away from that, because as soon as I go into solo, it starts to feel a bit more like the work thing.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Um, if when I get a chance, it's nice to just join hook up with some other people and yeah, yeah. Not worry about um yeah, exactly. And that's that's that's a big reason why we we play poor games, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

How about yourself? How about yourself? What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, I uh captain's chair, to be honest, is has been brilliant. Okay. I've been going through um each captain uh in the second wave in cadet mode. Um, because I like to just go through each one, learning the puzzle of oh, that's how um you know uh Kirk works, that's how Archer works, and and and just enjoying the design puzzle of of what they've done with this game, much like I did with Imperium, to be honest. I did the same. I'm just going, oh that's interesting, that's clever. And and some of them, I have no idea. I have no idea how to make this work, and then realizing at the end, going, ah, should have gone for that.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

So that's the best bit, I think, is figuring them out, right? Just trying to figure out. I mean, I'm still stuck on, I say stuck on, I'm still playing Kirk because um, I mean, I'm I'm from the old days and I grew up watching Kirk on TV, so that was the first one I grabbed. He's your captain, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like everyone's got their Doctor Who, you know, or whatever. I'm I'm not a Star Trek person, I've never watched anything. I'm saying he's my I've never watched anything beyond the original series, so um uh yeah, so so yeah, but it's nice just trying to to puzzle them out, and then once you figure it out, you want to move on to the next one, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah, it's kind of a great game. Yeah, like I like the the puzzle element of it, and then once I kind of know the the the strategies or the avenues that they kind of uh provide for you, then I'll start to double down on them a little bit more and then put the bots up against me and then yeah, just see how we fare on that. But now, you know, with 15 captains to choose from, um, you know, the the decision space over just of w which way you go is is getting bigger and bigger, and obviously there's more content coming down.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Um it was really I was what I was I'll be honest, I was surprised by it because I I I got it on the table and I thought, okay, let's study this thing. Okay, and I didn't expect to be enjoying it as much as I did, but it's really punchy. The playability is really really fluid, it plays really smooth, and um it you know it I thought it's like a game like Voidfall, right? I've never I I I'm like I'm not ready for it because my brain's not ready for it. Um I mean I'm not I'm not um I was I was thinking I was watching your um one of your other um podcasts, watching, listening to one of the other parts. You're talking about four X games, and I was thinking, John, that's something I've never done. And I thought maybe Void 4 would be something that could fall in that. But I I think like but while I was talking about like you know, try and make sure it's not work and it's just fun. Yeah, some sometimes I find games are just a bit too much for me because I want the I want to just find something a little bit more easy play, and I found Star Trek Captain Chair was really easy play. It was so smooth, the rules weren't that complicated. All the depth is in the in the cards and the interaction, so the there's a like a layer of rules, and then then everything else there you don't have to learn, it's just just it you just discover it, and it's yeah, yeah, it's really really nice. Yeah, it's clever.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

It's very clever how they've done that. And like you said, it's some some of the captains that you get, you end up with a tableau of uh monster tableau, and and then your brain starts to to run really white hard. Oh my god, I've got tap this, tap this, do this, do that. Yeah, and then you get to the case.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

But it doesn't matter if you miss it, doesn't and it doesn't matter if you miss things because you know, which inevitably you will. But it doesn't matter because the game doesn't break, it just it all just plays, and you and you you if you if you get to the end and you think, well, I didn't make any mistakes, then that tells you, well, you probably did, but you didn't notice, and that's perfect, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, that's fine. You still have fun, and that's what matters, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Nice, nice one.

How did Ricky get into the hobby?

SPEAKER_00 11:28

So how'd how'd you get in the hobby then, Ricky? Are you you've been in the hobby for a long, long, long time, or um is it a fairly recent issue?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Oh, yeah, yeah, recent thing. Um where are we now? Probably around um I mean I've always yeah, exactly. I've always liked board games. I've always liked board games, but not as we know them now, right? Hobby games. Um when I was a kid, I played board games. It was a way, I mean, I like everybody, like every family, or it kind of brought us together as a family. It was an excuse to get everyone together and focused on one thing, and that kind of left a mark on me that said board games are a really positive thing and something that I want to do with my family. So I've always grown up, but then you know, with with board games in in my life, so I mean I like playing chess as a kid, you know, when I was when I was a kid, um you know, I got a book from the library and learned to play chess and uh and um you know went off to little tournaments. I think one I think one one time uh tournament organizer came to pick me up from my house and said to my mum, I'm taking to a tournament. She's like, Oh, do you know how to play chess? And I was like, Yeah, I've learned, I read a book. Um, I was a little school, so I was about six or seven, I don't know. And then I came back with like a third place trophy, you know. And then the next year I came back with a first place trophy. So it really went kind of winning games gives you all that positive reinforcement when you're a kid, d develops that interest. So I kind of brought it, but then obviously as I grew older, I went away and discovered other things, and then um maybe I came back so hobby games probably around 2010, I think. I well, I came back to I wanted to um I was at home. Um I was at home um um um for a while, I think some health issues or something. So I was at home for a period, and I and I I don't really remember, but I at some point obviously I've gotten interested in the idea of uh designing a game, but um and I started to learn and and find this new world of of hobby games um through things like um pandemic and um ghost stories, um and this and and they kind of blew me away. Um I think Dominion was another one. They were they were I mean, I th I mean board games were either abstract games or roll and move, as far as I you know, like most people, yeah, and then um or dexterity games, so yeah, it was it was like oh my gosh, and then every time I discovered a new mechanism, like pandemic, was the idea of co-op cooperative gaming. I was like, Whoa, that's new, and then Dominion, obviously, with deck building, um, and then that that kind of sparked the snowball from there, really. Of uh this is my this is my thing, this is my new pattern.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

So um we've all gone through that. Yeah, exactly. The natural life cycle of a board gamer, isn't it? It's like you get introduced by whatever way medium person, then you want to collect them all. Like you literally go, This is amazing, the best thing ever. I want to have every board game ever has existed, which is impossible, and then you realise that's just an impossible feature to to kind of you know attend to.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

And well I feel like I feel like we've kind of been on that that on that curve a little bit because when I've when I first started back in what 2010-ish, those first we'll we'll talk about solo gaming. Yeah, you because I was at home. Um solo games was something you had to go and search out. Um, and I remember in the early days of um well, I guess the internet made made the massive I mean that was the massive shift, it suddenly made everything accessible. Um, you know, a world of games was suddenly not just what you saw in a shop window, and people were were starting to put things on YouTube. So there's a chap called um Robert from Black Belt Gaming, and he had these these YouTube videos, and I found those, and that was probably about 2010, 11. Okay, yeah. Um, and then Rodney Smith started doing these videos, and I remember finding these guys and watching it with this kind of curiosity and thinking, um, you know, what what is this? You know, what is this? This is strange. They're playing it on their own, you know. Yeah, it felt uh like they're having a little adventure and a little story, and they they they presented it so well on on the screen, and it was like they were telling a story as they played. And um and it kind of drew it drew me in, and I thought, I want to be, I want to do this, I want to make this. So that was it really. I wanted to make a game. Um yeah, and then and then you had to kind of search out these games. So I found games like the States of Siege games, you know, um what was it, like Dawn of the Zeds and Zulas on the Ramparts and Victory Point Games will make it these games. Um these States of Siege games, which were were solo games, and um and they became this puzzle that that that told the story, and and every time you played it played out a different way, and it was it was just fun, yeah, it was a fantastic new um medium that I really liked. And then and then I guess like I say, watching these guys on on YouTube, I felt, well, I want to do that too. I want to share what I'm doing, I want to share my experiences with these games with other people, and um and just and the act of recording it just makes you focus on the game in a different way, yeah. Um, and because because you don't just play them, you then commentate on the games.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah, you narrate.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

It's like now I find it really hard to play without narrating my own bloody game. So so um, but all that just kind of all enveloped into um this um this idea of making a game, which is which is kind of where where it was. It's nice, yeah. Yeah, and it's probably like you say, it's a very familiar story to yeah, but I think it's it's good to ask you though.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

I like I like listening to other people's stories of of how they got in the hobby, and you know, the where whilst the entry point's probably different for everyone, the the general curve as we talk about is the same. Uh I think it's just the natural evolution

PHASE C: BOX OF DELIGHTS

SPEAKER_00 17:49

of of what you go through. But it's really interesting to to see or you know hear you talk about you know the the YouTubers back in you know 2010 and obviously what's led to the genesis of of your Box of Delights channel, and obviously you saw something in them that you thought I want to do a piece of that, and and here you are now with you know with with your channel so many years later and you're still doing it.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

So yeah, I mean well, we're kind of a small little community of people. I mean, the whole board, I mean hobby board gaming is is a small little niche anyway, as you know. Yeah, um but over the over that period from 2010 it is it's massively taken off, so it's come from a very very tiny place to a uh a bigger than tiny place. Um but in that period that the solo gaming is also yeah, that's what I was gonna say. So what at the beginning we kind of had to go and search out these solo games, but now it's like every game. So so when so I in 2010 to 2015, it was like any if anything had a solo mode in it, or it was had one player on the box, it was like you've got to buy that, yeah. But like I say, now you've so you were collecting all those solo games, but now it's like everything cost solo game, so now it's like I've kind of stopped, yeah. I mean, I do buy games, I still do buy games, but not as much. It's the hungers for the new new games is not so great because what I'm looking for now instead is new experiences. So um, like with Sublime Dark, it was it it's the new experience. Um just the fact that I don't know what I'm getting, this is is the thing that's giving me the joy, you know, of just being something I don't know what's in there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

But no thrill of the adventure.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah, yeah, but now we're spoiled for choice. I mean, we we we couldn't buy everything because there's there's too much. Um and that's the challenge is to find and I think I think that's I mean I mean there's there's two objectives in producing a game. There's uh a commercial success is obviously one wonderful objective for project for publishers. But as a hobbyist, I don't need to worry about that. My objective is to to kind of create something that's uh that's new, that that that's not been seen before, and that's incredibly difficult, and sometimes it's um too difficult. Um and and that's um that's kind of what I did with uh what I tried to do with with with Deckers, really. Um but even then, it was like I said, I was I was I was I was looking at I was blown away by games like Dominion and Pandemic, which were so I wanted to create something, that was my first headline. I wanted to create this crisis management game that had deck building in, which I hadn't seen before.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Um so that's kind of where that whole thing, that idea came from. Um, but then it's now 15 years later and or 16 years later. Well, Deckers came out last year, so it's gone, it's been a long road to get to this point, yeah,

Have you always been into games design?

SPEAKER_02 21:00

for sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Exactly. So you obviously I mean, have have you dabbled in in game design going back to when you started uh the Box of Delights channel? Have you always been dabbling in game design on the side, or did that come later?

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, yeah, a little. I mean, uh the first the first, like I said, my objective was make a game. So I did make a game. Yeah, um, it was a little abstract game called Mentis, and that was back in 2010. Oh, okay. Um and there's little an independent publisher called Nesta Games, who I think they probably printed they they were it's just a one-man band printing his games himself, like um like little laser cut games. Well, Mentis was this little abstract game, and he probably he probably made about 50 of them tops, right? Um so it was like so yeah, I made my game, that was it as far as I go. Mission accomplished. Now I'm gonna move on to some other hobby. Yeah, but yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

So being a serial hobbyist, I was thinking, let's find the next thing. But for some reason It it wouldn't that idea wouldn't let me go. So I I I've I I kept coming back to it and I've stuck with it for all this time. But even as a kid, you know, like playing games of family, we probably all did it. We all made our own little roll and moves, you know, moved forward three spaces and missed a turn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

And salotate them together and drawn all over it when everything they always have the same. Yeah, always have the same thing. Just roll up.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Do the things then you have to force your sister to play it.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yes. Play this, I made it. Oh no, it's absolutely awful.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Now I'm forcing my kids to play stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah. Yeah, but you're good at games.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

No, they're not they're all they're all very encouraged. They give me lots of encouragement. Weary encouragement. I think that's probably what it is. My wife looks at me and just rolls her eyes. Playing with his playing with his little cubes as long as he's not causing any trouble. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

He's playing with his toys again. Yeah, exactly. I get the same. I get the same. Um my my wife plays games with me on my birthdays uh and Christmas, and then whenever she probably feels sorry for me, I think. But I tell but you know, I've got a gaming group. Which is birthdays and Christmas, which is birthdays and Christmas. You have to play, you have to play. Um, but no, she's she's not big into games at all. Like she she she likes that I've got that as a hobby. She likes the fact that I have that, and it's really nice that I've got this thing, but yeah, yeah, but for for her general math.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

It's not for everybody, and then it's not for most people, probably. Um, but maybe I think because a lot of people for a lot of people are ball games are just this terrible experience where there's too many rules and you you don't win, and people cheat, and you you you have a meltdown, so which is what my wife's experience of games is, yeah. Um but say that my wife's a mad, she's mad for things like Scrabble and word games. Um which I which I don't which I don't like. So I I'm as bad. So if she tries to get me to play Scrabble, I'd be running. I'm I've got I think Lorne needs marrying love, so I'd be off.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah, I'd rather do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

So is there something for everybody?

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yeah, but exactly,

PHASE D: RENEGADE TO DECKERS

SPEAKER_00 24:24

exactly. So obviously you in your game design, so you you started off um you know around that 2010 mark, and and you eventually designed a game called Renegade, um, which for those that don't know is the is the older version of Deckers, right? It was the original version that you had, um, which is effectively, I'd say it's the same, it probably not exactly the same, but it's it is the same. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

No, it's 100% the same. It is 100% the same because well, not 100%, it but the thing is if I was gonna make Deckers again tomorrow and give it a new name, it would also be the same game but different. You know, a game is never finished. No, and and in fact, I I'm I do a lot of work with um Cole Worley. Cole is somebody who um who he's known for Root, the ball game Root, which is the thing that made him take off. Cole Cole is notorious for never finishing a game, and and in fact, the projects I'm working on on him with, um so when I'm not doing my own games, mine predominantly doing solo rules for other people's games. Um and Cole is one of those people. So because I approached him with Pax Premier, uh, because I had a copy of Pax Premier. So what um what Cole's doing is kind of redeveloping and re-publishing with his own publishing company. So the strength of Root, off the back of Root, he was able to open up his new publishing company called Whirly Geek Games, and now um actually that's kind of uh now a subsidiary, if you like, of a of an umbrella company called Buried Giant. Yes, but what he was able to do with success at Root was then redevelop these old games, these older games. So he did it with um Patrick Me and John Company, um, and we're doing an infamous traffic right now. So now okay. But what what he has now is obviously because he's his own, you know, he he can direct himself and in in how long things take, he he can take years to to rework a game. And I know even after that, you know, like Pike Shamir's finished and John Company's finished, and and infamous traffic will be finished, but they won't be finished because I know that he'll want to keep you know you could you could just keep on on doing it, and that's the same, and that's what Deckers is before Renegade, it's renegade just evolved, evolved. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. Renegade I was preempting a question you might not have asked, but where did Renegade come from? I was I was working with on the it all kind of it was all kind of in connect interconnected because I was talking about all those early influences which were like um you know the States of Siege games, and they were made by um um a chap called Alan Emric who ran um Victory Point Games. Um and they were victory point games were making all these wonderful games that were particularly um um attracted to solo gamers because they catered for solo gamers, which a lot of publishers didn't. And anyway, Alan was an early advocate of solo gaming, um sadly passed away now. But Alan Alan was a wonderful chap and a wonderful mentor, and somebody who through just a love of a love of games and a love of teaching people about the the design of games, which is what he did. Um, and I and because I was interested in his games and I was showing them on my YouTube channel, and there weren't a great many of us around back then doing this stuff. Like now there's thousands of YouTube, which is wonderful. Um, you've got so much more more um exposure now, which is great. But because there weren't many of us, it it kind of it meant we could have a conversation and get to know each other, and and and I could talk to him a little bit about what I was trying to do with my designs, and then he said, Well, I'll I'll publish it for you, you know. I showed it to I sent him a prototype and it and and I said, Well, I love your games, this is perfect for you. Yeah, and I told him it was perfect for him. Um, but the g and that's always good. If you if you if you're trying to if I mean okay, you didn't ask me, but if you want a tip for how to get a game published, is that's great, give give a publisher a game they want, right? Which is what I did.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Um well I it kind of did. I gave him a I gave him a set of m mechanisms and a game design he liked, but he wasn't quite with down with the theme. Um because I'd done it, I'd done it as this historical game, and he kind of felt he need he needed something different because his portfolio was full of historical games. Yeah. But he liked the game. So we kind of redeveloped it and he put a team of people with me to work on this this cyberpunk idea.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Oh, so it wasn't a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Which I didn't it wasn't, it wasn't it wasn't even my idea, it was it was it was uh Alan or someone in his team's idea.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Um and he had a chap that um called Tyler Allender in who who was in his development team, and he came in and helped develop this cyberpunk idea, um, which he was really into. He was coming he was from a video game background. Um, and I learned so much just from working with with Alan and his team. And I think the the other thing that interested Alan, or maybe what caught his attention, was the fact that I was advocating for solo gamers as well, which again, like I said, at the time you kind of had to search out a little bit. It was already a big thing in the wargaming circles, solo gaming, but less so um in the broader board game um market. Um, I mean, like I say, there were things like um Ghost Storage, which you could which was co-op and um Shadows Over Camelot was was a co-op game, but it had this traitor element, so it was difficult to solo. So there were these co-op games that you could solo, but things that were ri really designed to be played solo. There was a uh there was a card game called Friday, that was that was another game. I remember it's all coming back to me now, all the all the all those old games that I haven't played for years.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

That so that was a solo only game. So they were there, but they just weren't as widespread.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Um, but yeah, so to renegade kind of thing, but it had a very short print run, and it was and then Victory Point Games got bought out, and it just kind of put that kind of um sealed that game's fate, really. And I thought that was the end of it. Yeah, but then when my contract ran out, um I got the rights back to the design, and and then Mateus Nook from Deep Print Games said, Please can we do it? And I'm like, Yeah, we want to go. And I'm like, Yeah, you guys have done so many great games. Um yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so yeah, that was it was perfect timing, and then it happened again.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Yeah, it was it was such a great announcement when you unveiled that because I've heard of Renegade and I've watched your videos uh playing it, you know, on your channel. And I I like the cyberpunk theme to me, it it it it hits me. I'm like, yes, this is like the themes that I really gravitate towards, like even in video games or you know, uh Neuromancers, like one of the books I've read um that I I really enjoy. So like you know, the birthplace of Cyberpunk and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, when when I heard of this game, it's like, oh, this is great. And like, well, where can I get it? And I'm like, oh you can't. Oh when you and when it kind of came out um whenever it was announced, um, that obviously it was being released uh last year. I was I was so like excited for it because it's got a fresh look of plate paint on it, it's you know, the the artwork on the cards and everything just started to really pop and and yeah, and then obviously getting my hands on it, it's like yeah, gameplay's awesome as well. So good. And it's fun, it's just such a bloody great puzzle. It's like for solo games as well. I love playing it solo because I've just I get lost in that that puzzle um and it challenges me, which is what you want, right? It's what you want.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Well, I designed it as a solo game initially. It was it was a solo game that I wanted to play, and I wanted to put all the all the things in it that I enjoyed. Um, but I know I know that sometimes that's too much, and there's some and and like for example, there's a push-your-luck element in there, which you which you can avoid if you want to.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Um but I know a lot of people it just puts them off, they're like, oh, this dice, take it away. So a lot of the development of deckers was and what people might not realize is that the the the game kind of layers in a foundation of rules, and then all these you you can face multiple opponents and m multiple objectives, and there's hundreds of thousands of combinations, but but each one of those will layer on new new rules or modify the rules in a slightly way, slightly different way. So if you want to play where the dice are not important, you can do that because you can pick a boss that doesn't ask for the dice, you know. So there's those kind of things, but the it's a little bit it was a little bit naive in a way because and I and I and I maybe I've learned that now, but fortunately when Mateus from Deeper in Grange took the game on, he was he excuse me, he he loved the game, so he he's just taking it on as it is and given giving me free reign. But there's still that naivety in there of um what was gonna say I think that you to to be a com commercial a success it needs a different set of requirements, and what happens with deckers is it's got it's got this barrier of entry, and it's not just a um a barrier of entry of that oh it's complicated to to learn all the rules, but if you if you never get past that first boss, you never find out that there's actually ways to play that don't involve the dice. If you the first game you play involves lots of rolling dice, you just go, Oh, this is not for me, I hate it. And then you never play again without discovering there's new ways.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

There's there's many avenues to achieve your objective in that game, and and knowing the the programs uh and kind of what they do and how you can manipulate them to your advantage. Um, yeah, it's it's it's very clever, and I love the fact that it's just it's not linear, it's like, well, there's the objective. You go that way, you can go that way, uh, you can go the other way. It's like there's so many ways you could achieve it, it's brilliant. Um, so yeah, no, I I I'm a fan. I'm not just saying that because you're fine.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Well, I'm glad you well, I'm glad you got past it because it's not a reviewer-friendly game. Because like I say, that you know, and I know this from when I try and do videos for games. Sometimes you if you if you if you didn't enjoy the first game, you might push on to trying it again. But if you if you can't get beyond a couple of games and you you you've got something else to play, then you never get that far. So it's not a reviewer-friendly game. But um, but I know that people who love it tend to really love it, and then people who don't like it tend to really not like it. There's no there's no middle ground with it. There's nothing wrong with that. That's kind of that's cool.

Evoking emotions through solo gaming

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Nothing wrong with that. That's that that's just saying, look, I'm not being apologetic about how this game works. This game works in the way it works because that's how I designed it, and and to find people that that gravitate towards that and go, you know what, I get what you're trying to achieve here, and I find that puzzle fun because I don't want it too easy, I don't want it it's too easy to be boring. I want it to kick me in the the nuts a few times. I've got to really think around it. I enjoy um frostpunk the board game for the same reason, okay, right? And I play that solo, and it's a lot to play on your own, but you can do it, and it's that same principle of when you beat that damn thing, and I've never stood up after I played a solo game and punched the air before. And so I won frostpunk once, and it did. I stood up and I was walking around the house like I'd won uh a tournament of something, like and my wife was like, Are you alright? It's like, yeah, I just won frostpunk. She's like, I got no idea what I'm talking about and how important that was. I said, But I bloody beat it, and it and it like changed my mood for the rest of the day. I was just beaming, and that game did that. A game did that to me, and you know, and I get that's kind of similar feeling when I sit down with Deckers and I go, Right, right, yep, I go right, I'm gonna figure this out. And and when you do it, you're like, yes. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, that's that's good to know. That's good to know. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Well, yeah, that that's what that's what you need to do with a with a game because and this is what I was talking about um before. Um, and I was talking to Dave Turtsy, David Tursey about it, actually, because um we were uh um I mentioned um Voidfall earlier on, but we we're working on a game together at the minute, but it's not our game, we're both working on an expansion for a game. Um so David's doing uh an expansion for a game called Nature, and I'm working on the and I'm working on the solo rules for David's design for nature, so it's odd. But we might we might scheme. We might scheme. But anyway, we were talking about the fact that there's no what's the point in making a game that just gives you a flat and you know, kind of a negative experience. It's better to to make something that a lot of people will hate if a lot of people will also love it, and if it's gonna give you in what you said about Frox Panel I've never played actually, but it if it's gonna give you an emotional response, then it's doing the same kind of thing as a book or a movie or music. You know, it's another I mean it is an art form, and I can ask it because it can give you if it can give them give someone an emotional experience, then um then like other art forms, it's done what it's supposed to do. It's not supposed to I mean the thing about and I think that's more important for solo games than anything else. I mean, multiplayer games are uh are a vehicle for getting people together around a table and creating a social experience. Yeah, so that it's a strange thing because the objectives of a multiplayer game and a and a solo game are very different, despite them being both board games. But the solo game has to you haven't got other people around the table, so they're they're not they're not trying to do the same thing, you know. So, you know, mechanisms like um like bidding and negotiation and and trade and mechanics, they're all wonderful for multiplayer games because they create all that fun and excitement, but you can't do that at the at the solo table, you have to deliver that emotion the same way as a as a book or music or film does, because it's a one-on-one experience. Like when you go to the movie, it's you and the film, you're not chatting to the guy next to you, and when you're reading a book or listening to music, maybe you can dance with other people, but yeah, I'm I'm telling you stuff that you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's I've not really thought about it in that way before, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

But for a solo game, you have to deliver that in a different way than the multiplayer game, and that's really hard to do. And I think this is a problem a lot of people fail when they when they when when you when you create a multiplayer game, you think let's let's touch on a solo mode. Suddenly you've got to remember that all right. Well, this is what I try and I mean everyone's got their own idea about what's right and what's wrong, and this is just my idea. But you've got to remember, I or I try to tell myself that the solo game's got to deliver that something different because there's nobody else at the table. You can play solo games together, they're co-op games, you can, or you can both of you share the experience, which is a great way to play games. But if a solo game is just let's try and play the multiplayer game with one person, I think a lot of the times it's a little bit like oh well, I did that then, and I don't want to come back to it because it didn't give me that emotional kick that Fox Bunk gave you. Yeah, um, so you've really got to deliver that, and sometimes when you're doing um designs for other people's games, which I talked a little bit about with Cole, what I'm doing with Cole, he's he's Cole's very good at develop uh designing some multiplayer games, and trying to attach a solo mode on top is very hard because you've got to deliver something different that doesn't rely on or rely on all that player interaction. Um and that's been a real a real challenge, and uh so yeah, it's so games that are play designed to play co-op are naturally good that way, I think. But games that are pl played just for one person, like Friday was one of those ones in those early war games, they've got to tell that story the same way a movie or a book would. And what and I think designers are getting better and better at doing that now for sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

It's a lot about invoking feelings. So, what feeling do you want to invoke from the player when I'm designing this, and that's the feeling I want them to be like stressed, or I want them to yeah, to be perplexed or confused, or I want them to do this or that, and and yeah, it's it's very important. I never thought about it from a solo perspective, but it makes perfect sense that it's you you and the medium, that's it. Like there's no one else to carry it, or there's no one else to to do a lot of the heavy lifting, so you have the game has to do it, it has to to drive that. So, yeah, but very interesting, yeah. It's very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

But at the same time, there's another element which is board gamers like solving puzzles, you know. People can do crossword puzzles and sudokos and things, and you don't that doesn't have to be, but I like doing Sudokas. I did one yesterday, but even then I finished it, it took me like an hour and a half to do a 10-minute puzzle. But when I did it, it was that sense of I got the I'm better than you, Stuki. Yeah, so but I beat you, yeah, exactly.

Crafting the world of Deckers

SPEAKER_02 42:00

So you can do it, but it's like with Deckers. There's the the it was like I had to do the change of setting um from this historical game to the cyberpunk world, which you talked about William Gibson's neuromance, which I hadn't read, so I had to get myself I spent my head in that, and and that's lingo, I saw the lingo and and it's coming to Apple TV, I hear very excited, very excited for it, yeah. Yeah, well I'm interested in in that for sure. But it it's something that I've learned, and you start to try and speak that you speak that way, but it that that was a massive shift from history to cyberpunk. But the mech and the interesting thing was that I the core of the mech the mechanisms were there, but I had to change a heck of a lot to make it fit into this new setting. Um and to get I mean the the the the thematic ideas I guess are kind of similar, but I was I was um um in that you were trying to uh do this risk, you know, this crisis management, and there was the mechanics of desk deck building, and you were trying to keep things together on a on a and it was the kind it was the you know the um the the the Anglo-Saxon Britain it was. Yeah. But I had to transpose that into this new setting, um, which forced a lot of the mechanisms to change because and what the most significant thing I I remember thinking was the well this cyberpunk world is this uh is this dark, uh closed claustrophobic space where I'm a hacker and I'm I'm focused on this thing, whereas uh um Anglo Saxon Britain was this massive landscape, you know. So I had to kind of change the way the game felt. I mean it and it it it is true a lot of people will play it and see it as a puzzle and say that that there's there's not much theme, and that's true in because Because I'm I'm trying to create an abstract world in an abstract game. So what am I trying to create? I don't know. So we in every little piece I had to try and deliver a little bit of story where I could.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

But it did mean changing some of the mechanisms. So just I mean it is it is hard to see where the the two games were the same game now because in you know the the artwork, the flavor text, the the mechanisms shift slightly to try and deliver that that world. And they and I mean a question I often get asked is well which comes first the the mechanics or the theme by theme we often mean setting, but they come together, they they come as a pair.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Yeah. So like all the cards you see in Deckers right now, they none of those existed in the other game, not a single one. Because each one had to get a story attached to it, which inevitably changed the mechanisms, you know. So look, you know, like here's the decoy duck, which is this, what is that? Well, in the world of um, it was actually a dancing pig at one point, and which is which is which in the world of of hackers is like a like a distraction, right? It's saying, come over here, come and get me, kind of thing. Yeah, so it's this a decoy, and that card had to then behave in a different way than it would have done in a different world. So and and all that process was so much fun to just to do. Um and then obviously with the with d print get games picking it up, they're based in in Germany, so their first thought was well, we need to produce this game in German. So that also meant I had to change a lot of the language. So you talked about neuromancer. I mean, how does someone translate that into a foreign language? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

No idea. No idea. So we've got to be.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yeah, no idea. And now, and now we've we've we've got um language partners all over, so um it was like English, German, now we've got Spanish, Czech, Chinese, Korean, French is on the way. Brilliant. How they how those those teams of people translate deckers, I've absolutely no idea. Because they've got to translate all that flavour text, which has been the hardest thing, writing all that flavour text. But yeah, neuromarzer was a big influence for that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yeah, no, I thought it was. I mean, uh it's a big influence on cyberpunk theming in general, isn't it? Just the the way it was so much. Yeah, it's it had to come from somewhere, and that's uh yeah, one of the oldest uh kind of references of of that world. But no, I absolutely I adore that world. I always quite like dystopian futures when they're settings in films and things like that. Obviously, I don't like a dystopian future, I don't want one for myself, but I like the the concept of how the world might become.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

And but that's something we can do with games. We we can explore those worlds, can't we? Is are there any other games? Are there any games these they think do that really well? If you if you if that's something that you put you on the spot now with a question, you have put me on the spot, yeah. Dystopian games, dystopian games. I mean because we tend to focus a lot on on fantasy, I'll hide fantasy and yeah, and history and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

I think life anachrony is kind of an interesting one. Um, and in terms of its theming, um, and obviously the element of time travel, and and actually if you get into the story of anachrony, it's like oh a meet uh meteorite's coming to to destroy, but it's the same meteorite that destroyed the UF originally, you know, like eh? So it's like a time travel loop thing going on. Um what about this war of mine? I was looking at the I've not played it, no, but I think I probably would enjoy that in the fact that it's very thematic, and I think um Jakob um who works well is part of Glass Cannon, I think he wrote or did a lot of the narration for for This War of Mine back in back in when he did the um yeah with with Adam Adam Pinsky's design, isn't it? I think. Yeah. So so yeah, so he's uh yeah, lot lots of different games out there. That's a what if it's kind of like that what if, isn't it? I always like that. What if this happened, or what if there's someone won that war? What would happen to the world? Like anything like that is just intriguing, um, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Okay. Well, I admire I admire designers who can create those worlds because that's so difficult to do. I mean, you've got to be a special kind of mind, I think to be able to create new worlds and also be someone who can put mechanisms together if you can do do that. I mean, I guess the history games are easier because the world's already created. Um, but at the same time, you've then got to abstract that history into a game. So there's every different type and when we play games and and we and this is what's happened, which this kind of loots us back to the beginning where we we play games either as a player or we play games as somebody who's then pulling it apart and trying to analyze it. Every every type type genre of game has got its own challenges. I mean, we talked about as solo and multiplayer, how they're not just two games played by different player cats, they become completely different challenges in how you build them, and different games in different genres is the same problem. I mean, to create these worlds and be a good storyteller. I mean, Tristan's doing it here with Sublime Dark, and you've got all this text to write, all these stories to write. Yeah, that's not mechanisms. That's that's something that's writing a novel so hard. Yeah, engaging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's powerful, and that's tough. And that's been the challenge. I mean, in Deckers, I've got at most, I've got like a few lines of flavor text on a card, and the hours and hours I've spent just this is not my wheelhouse. How do I, you know, just trying to get two lines of text? And then poor um poor Sebastian, who's done the development and the and the translations into German. The the time I've spent with him, and he's going, Ricky, that doesn't make sense. What does this word mean? And I'm like, Okay, I'll write it again, I'll write it again, you know. And and I'm like, I'm trying to create this esoteric thing that I'm like, it only makes sense to me. And he's like, Well, it doesn't make sense to me. And I'm like, Well, does it have to make sense to you? It makes sense to me. It's so hard, and then I realise other people have to read it, and it's it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

It's what it is, it's what it is. Nice, nice.

PHASE E: DECKERS DUPLICITY

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Um, so obviously we talked a lot about deckers. Um, and I'm not probably gonna ask you to to explain what deckers is, it's been out a year now. Everyone, you should know, like go and check it out, it's there, it's all there. Um, but what is exciting definitely for me um was the fact that I thought you'd have deckers done last year, and then that'll be it. But now yeah, we're we're approaching Essen, you know, which in a few weeks' time, and there it is the expansion for Deckers. It's like, oh yeah, that was a surprise. I'll genuinely surprise. So, yeah, how did that come about? And what is it all about? And let's get people excited for Deckers expansion duplicity, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Let's yeah, yeah, I don't know how that happened. I must have not been paying attention because I I thought it was finished as well. Oh, really? And then yeah, and then uh uh I yeah, I wanted to move on to I've got I'm developing all these other games. I'm like because I said to Mateus, I've got all these other games. You wanna you want to look at these other games? And I keep giving him these new designs, and he's like, I'll show them onto my team anyway. Yeah, Deckers. So but it's it's nice to get drawn back into it. I think I think it was a short print run, the Deckers. I think they did like I don't know, maybe it was well it's I think I took a I took a thousand to Essen last year and they sold them all, but that's only that's not many, and then I think they did another couple thousand, but then I think they realized they needed they they were just selling out before the yeah the ship had uh hit the dock, you know. Yeah, so it did a little bit better than they hoped. Hoped a little bit better than they uh thought it was gonna do. It did better than they hoped. It did it did better. So and I think that the aim is you know, games moves so this game takes over my life for like 10 years, but for for every for the world out there, it's just this season's game, and then in a few months' time it will be the next thing. Yeah, so you have to you have to keep it so we so we did a short print run, and then they realised well they sold out, we should do another print run, but you've got to keep the interest. There's no point printing a load more, which takes time if everyone's moved on to the next thing. Um, so I don't know. I'm marketing and the the the the business model is not my no um my ball game, but I imagine it makes sense to bring out an expansion to just keep the interest flowing from a coach commercial point of view, but also deckers is so easy to expand. Yeah, you know, you just add you add another SMC, you add more objectives. Um, so it's not difficult to do. I didn't have to create any more rules, but at the same time, once Mateus set the challenge, can you go and create this? And he said, This is what I want you to do. Here's some ideas, and he had ideas about the theme, and he talked about um this um you know dual state idea, which was Mateus' idea, not mine. Um, can you deliver that? And I said, Okay, but and we talked about well, I don't really want to ever deliver, I didn't really want to deliver more of the same because when I do something, it has to be interesting to me because I'm not in it for the money, I'm in it for the for the j joy of doing it. Yeah, so I wanted to do so I wanted to do something that was a little bit different that gave the game a little bit more a new dimension. So Mateus' idea of um he had this idea of of of the the Roman god Janus and and then which is a two-headed two-faced thing. So I went with that um and came up with this flipping idea, this flipping idea that said that you could flip the profiles and change your abilities. Um you were you were talking about asymmetry in games um a few weeks ago, and and it's the came the only real asymmetry is that every decker has its own special ability. Well, now you've got deckers that can flip and change their ability. Um and an SMC that does the same, so a boss, an opponent that does the same. So you kind of have to manage and it and it kind of creates this terrible um um um puzzle that you think you've got deckers nailed and now suddenly it throws this new thing at you.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Now there's an upside down, and you're like oh exactly, it's all I got up.

SPEAKER_02 54:55

So yeah, it's really good fun to do, and it's not a big expansion, it's only it's a little box. I think it's 10 euros. It's not gonna be I mean, deckers isn't expensive, but this expansion is just you know peanuts too. And you can add it, but what but adding it's just gonna it just every time you add this another layer, everything just explodes in terms of variability, you know, because suddenly you can play all your bosses in a new way and all your objectives multiply and oh yes so um but I don't know. I mean, if it and maybe maybe we'll do more. I don't know, maybe we'll do more. So the thing that was finished is never finished, but I would like to do something new as well. Yeah but it's hard, it's hard trying to convince publishers because it's a massive gamble for them, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Because they don't know what's gonna do well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

Yeah, yeah. Unless you're an established name, when your name sells again, my name doesn't, because I mean in the solo, if I I know I know I'm starting to edge a little bit into the solo world where I'm no David Turtsy, but I thought I've if my name's in there, I think people starting to recognise that I can do if I can do a decent solo mode, so that helps. But in terms of my own designs, it's still I'm still a hard sell. I'll keep trying. But this guy's his thing. Yeah, so everyone's really friendly and really positive and supportive in our industry. So that it it's it's it's easy, easy to form relationships and actually twist a few arms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

So I mean, just have to be persistent, yeah. It's it's persistence is key, isn't it? I think it's be true to what you're trying to create, and you know, don't don't let up on that. But yeah, I can imagine it's a tough gig to to get in front of publishers and they're probably getting pitched at left, right, and centre from many, many people.

SPEAKER_02 56:48

And and that they and the the publishers are always are all m more often they're the designers, and they want to publish their own games, they don't want to publish other people's games.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Um and the people who break through into Kickstarter and things like that and can self-publish, well, you know, they they're taking a huge risk, and it's yeah, not an easy task. I don't know how they I could never do that, I'm sure. No, it's a lot of work, a lot of risk. Yeah, especially when you've got a mortgage to pay. Because there's no money in it either.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

No, so no, no, we don't do it for the money, we do it for the exactly we do it for the joy of the hobby and and putting something. I mean, it must be kind of special though to to kind of see you know a game like Deckers that you've poured your heart and soul into even previously when it was renegade, and to see it on shelves and to see yes finally people you know giving it the the recognition that you know it deserves, and the fact that you know deep print are are banging on the door and going, come on, we need some more stuff for it. And you know, that's kind of nice, it's a good feeling, right?

SPEAKER_02 57:54

It is, yeah. Yeah, well, when you when um if I'm out with my wife shopping and we pass the game shop, yeah, she looks at me, she says, Do you want to look in? Do you want to look in the window and see if your game's in there? So I have to go in, and if it's in there, I'll pick it up. She'll take, I'll take a picture. Yeah, take a picture held in it.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Yeah, I'd be the same, mate. I would be exactly the same. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Can you imagine if you're like if you're like Reiner Knitsi or something, you make a thousand. He must be thinking this. It's just a job, right? It's just job. But maybe he, I'm sure he gets joy out of every game he makes. But um that's a lot of jobs. It's nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

That's a lot of jobs.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

It's nice to have a well, it's nice to have a hobby that you can do and have fun doing for sure. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. Cool. Okay.

PHASE F: WHAT'S COMING UP

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Um, so we're probably getting to the the end of the chat, Ricky. Although I could literally chat for you to about another five hours, but um, we probably shouldn't do that for the purposes of the viewers. Um, but I I think let's finish off with what's coming up next for you that you can share. Because there's probably a lot that's coming up that you can't share, and that's fine. But what's coming up that you're excited about, um, whether it's in gaming related or not, what's what's exciting, Ricky?

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Yeah, well, I'm well, I mentioned it right now. I'm working on an infamous traffic with um which which is Cole Whirley's um project.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

So is that that's is that is that a bit like uh an older game that's being re-heard of it before?

SPEAKER_02 59:27

Yeah, so um um it was Holland's field back in, and I've just got the date 2016. So 10 years later, Cole is now developing a new version, it's due for release next year. Um, so I'm on board to do the solo the solo. So are you familiar with um Pax Premier and John Company? Yes, yeah, so it's in the same set they they kind of there's they'll start it may feel like a little bit of a trilogy because it's East India Company again, and we're around um 1820, I think. Yeah, at the start of the game. Um so it's all it's the opium wars, um, is this is the setting, and the East India Company were were basically the I mean if you think about the Britain at the time, it was the East India Company in terms of their economics. Yeah, um, but there was this massive trade deficit with China because of all the tea that we were so we were buying all the tea. I say we because we're British. We we we were buying all the tea. So all this silver was heading east. I don't think tea. I don't think I don't I don't have opium either, as it goes. So all this um tea was all this silver was heading east and nothing was coming back apart from tea. So they had to create this um they had to kind of figure out a way to kind of get the balance of trade back. And they thought, well, what what have we got? And we've got the East Indian Company was kind of monopolising the the opium trade in India, yeah. Um, but you couldn't trade opium in China because that would have been terrible. So what they did instead is they they sold all this um opium to private merchants who would then go and sell it in China on their behalf, right? Um obviously with the with the with the aim of getting silver coming back the other way. Yeah, um, so that's what it was all about, and um and this game is trying to model that idea that you're playing one of these um these merchants trying to um sell your opium in in China um and obviously they're you're up against um local law enforcement and um and and pirates and everyone else who are trying to stop you. Yeah, so but it's it's if it's an economic game, it's a it's it's in the same vein as John Company and uh it's closer to John Company in the in the in the theme of the game in that it's oh you know and how it plays and its mechanisms, in that um there's a lot of player above the table stuff going on. Yeah, the mechanisms aren't that complicated, but the game is taking on that role uh in in this setting and trying to outwit your yeah your competition. So I've got to um say got to, well I well I haven't I haven't I've said yes, but um my my challenge is to create a solo game and and it's very it's proving really difficult actually because I I feel a little a lot of weight because there's there's a there's a higher level of expectation now because of the way that the Pax Premier and John Company and Molly House and other games I worked on with them were received and the solo games in particular, yeah. That that fortunately were well received. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

Gotta keep this status quite real. Where can I go?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

Where can I go from here? And also I've said my own challenge, I don't want to do something I've done before, and I want it to be something I don't want it to just be just another solo game. Remember, we talked earlier about how it has to deliver a different experience. There's so much of the movement traffic is created by the players around the table, yeah, more so than I anticipated. But I want to do it in a way that I've not done before, and I want but I want to give that emotional kick and I want to give the story and I want to be true to the history. Um so I've been l listening to a lot of um history podcasts, and I'm not terribly great at reading. I've tried reading, but I tend to nod off after about five minutes. So um, yeah, so that's what I'm working on, is is so I'm really in that I'm in that discovery phase at the moment of where I've said to Cole, yeah, I think we can do it. Because the initial question was, can we do it? And if we can't, if I don't feel I can do it, I'll just say no.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

And now I felt, yeah, I can do it. I've got some ideas. So I'm in that kind of discovery phase moment, which is great, of just getting living with the game a little bit and getting feels for it. And and then and then, you know, I've I've got a world of people all saying, Ricky, do it this way, do that. I've got ideas, why don't you do this way, this? Which I'm trying to shut out as much as possible because I want to be in my little zone of yeah, what creative is all about. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

Yeah, let me do my thing and then we'll we'll figure out how it works.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

Yeah, but I know once I get deeper into it, because at the moment I'm just kind of tentatively foot in the water, but toes in the water. But when I start when I'm deep in it, every other game will not get an in a look in because I'll be deep in it. Um that's fine. Uh and that's good fun. I really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

Yeah, I can imagine that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

So I'm kind of working on rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Yeah. Oh, that sounds cool. That sounds um yeah, my street. I've I've I need to play these games because I've heard of Pax Premier, never played it. Heard of John Company a lot, never played it. Um, and even Mollyhouse never played. So I I think I need to give give these a whirl. I think I'll probably like them. Um I've seen them being played and I know a lot about them, but I just never had that opportunity to sit and play them yet. It just doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

And they're beautiful on the table as well. They're just they're love, they're games. Yeah, to get them out and just hold the pieces and push them around and touch the cards and read the and just get involved. And they they're the kind of games that make you want to pick up a book actually, or yeah, learn about periods. Learn about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Yeah, yeah. I love that. They're history lessons in in game design, you know. And it's a similar thing with hegemony that made me I I got zero interest in like social economic politics, like generally, that's not my thing. But when I played hegemony, I I can't help but like be in awe of how they've got this game design that made me be more interested in that world. I'm like, I've never thought that would have ever happened to me. I'm like, but it's like I can't help but role play that game and be part of the system that it's drawing you into be. You know, if you're playing as the working class system, you are fighting the fights that the working class system. Them fights in real countries and and anything. And you come away going, geez, have they done that? How have they again evoked that feeling of being oppressed and you know uh capitalist um basically trying to work me to the bone and get every cent out of me? Uh and you're like, no, I'm not having it anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

You must be you must be someone who has a has a curiosity for that kind of things because yeah, this is the thing, especially with these kind of themes of games. The um to a lot of people it would it to many people it would just be well that looks dull and boring, I'm not even gonna go near it. But you must have an inherent uh curiosity to to to first even take on a game like that, and then it's gonna spark like I say, they've got that power board games to just make you curious and and want to learn more. Definitely and this is a again again when I mean compare historical games like that or economic games like that with then fantasy games, they're different worlds, and they're trying to tickle different bits of your brain. Um and you've got and particularly with a historical game, the other thing with historical games is you've got a weight of responsibility, particularly if you want to do it properly, to to do it in a way that's sensitive to the history and and honest to the history and also delivers the right the right message, which is which is uh which is difficult because a lot of people say, Well, it's just a game, I just want to play a game, but it's it's not it's not because of what we've just been saying, because you will even if you didn't mean to, you will be influenced by what you're learning from playing the game, and then and you will take messages even if it's uh um subliminal. You will try and uh take something from that experience and and and if that's um an honest thing that's gonna make you uh be interested in it. I mean go away and make your own opinions afterwards, but um it's um yeah, there's a there's a different uh skill to delivering a historical game. Yeah, yeah, all these it's more complicated than we when you when we first started looking at board games, we were like you just roll dice and move pieces, and then suddenly it becomes this bigger thing. It's yeah, it's mad, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

It is it is, but we love it, and yeah, we'll continue to love it, and that's that's why we're here. So, but no, yeah, yeah. But there we go, there we go,

Thanking Ricky

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

there we go. I probably should uh put a cap on this now. Uh I don't want to, but I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to. Um, but no, look, I I think thank you so much, mate, for jumping on and chatting. Games, designs, how how they make us feel, and you know, a little bit about the the birth of Deckers and the new expansion that's coming out. It's um yeah, genuine genuine pleasure, mate. Genuine pleasure to to dive in the world, like your your mind as well to to explore it. And I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

Well, thanks for letting me ramble on about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Uh, anytime, pal. Any anytime. And I'm sure I'm sure the listeners and and viewers would um would would equal that because uh yeah, I like to give a little bit of a window to to different you know kinds of people and designers and and and whatnot, and yeah, not just me talking about games all the time, even though that's probably what I do most of the time, but it's nice to give someone else a chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

Yeah, although we maybe we take ourselves a bit seriously. I have to remind myself that we take ourselves a bit too seriously with these things because when I show my when I show my daughter what I'm doing, she says, she just looks at me and says, It's not quite kaplunk, Dad. And that's kind of comfort. I I just remind myself of that every now and again. Yeah, isn't it? We're supposed to be having fun as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but no, thank you so much, buddy. Thank you so much. Take care.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:48

Welcome, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

All right,

PHASE G: THE LAST PLAY

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

well, there you have it. Thank you so much, Ricky, for joining us for the uh the show. Uh it's really great to speak to you. Uh I'm back in my studio now, as you can kind of see. Um, but yeah, no, if you really enjoyed that episode, then please like, review, subscribe, all of that stuff, comment, engage with the show. It really makes a massive difference to small content creators like myself. And if you really enjoy the show and you want me to make more content, um, including getting more designers like Ricky onto the show, then yeah, we have a coffee where people can kind of support and uh yeah, throw a couple of quid to keep the show going. And that's always appreciated. And for those that do, you know, you're all legends in my book, so it's all good. Um, but yeah, that's pretty much it. We'll be back again for another episode very soon. But all that's left to say is you only grow old when you start playing. Take care, everyone.