OPENING

SPEAKER_00 0:00

At my table, Poker didn't just die, Deco literally stole at C. And with the new pistachio expansion, I don't believe I'll ever come back.

PHASE A: PULL UP A CHAIR

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Welcome everybody to the Just Play podcast. I'm your host as always, JP, and I've got a Just Play with us special uh edition or special episode where I'm joined by Harkin, and we're going to talk about Deco and its new expansion, the pistachio expansion. But let's waste no time. Let's jump on and introduce Harkin. How are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

I'm great. I'm good. I'm on GameFound live right now, and I'm very nervous and all kinds of feelings all day. So I'm right.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, it's very exciting. It's very exciting times. Like this expansion, pistachio expansion, is it's been one I've been waiting for ever since you teased this. You teased this about a year ago. Because for those that don't know, me and you met a year ago when I was doing Whose Turn Is It Anyway podcast. And you jumped on very gracefully and and did an episode with us to promote the original Game Found um campaign of Deco, right? And uh we had a really good chat about that. And I think it's myself and and Dan who was on the show who who interviewed you. And yeah, we had a blast. And and I have to say, like the whole experience of of doing that that interview was fantastic to learn more about the game. But not only that, the the actual GameFound campaign that we did, or you did, was so honestly, and I'm not saying this because you're on the show, is one of the most well-run campaigns that executed that I've ever been a part of on the receiving end, right? Because communications-wise, you were nailing this is what's going on, this is what's happening, and this was the timeline, and it arrived. Do you know what I mean? Like, and it wasn't too long, it wasn't like a oh, this is a two-year timeline thing. It was like, no, it's done, done. And before I knew it, it was in my hands and it was fantastic. So, firstly, well done for that, because that's not easy to do. And I know it's not easy to do to put these things together and and and actually deliver on what you said you would do, especially in the world of logistics and all of the challenges that you face. So, firstly, well done, Hawking, because that was an expertly inexecuted campaign, mate. So, yeah, so there you go. But yeah, so we we uh met then. Um, and I will put a link into that episode because that's still live. People can go and um uh listen to that um for sure. So I'll put a link in this show notes of this episode if anyone wants to kind of get the introduction to the world of of that. But we'll probably cover some of those questions again for the new listeners uh here. So, as always, Harkin,

PHASE B: INTRODUCING HAAKON

SPEAKER_00 2:46

I think you remember I probably asked a similar question. Um, I'm not gonna ask you what your favourite game is because I already know it's probably chaos in the old world if it's not changed from the last time. Uh, because I'm not gonna ask you that. Um, but I'm gonna ask you what you have you played recently that isn't deco or the expansion. What's been hitting your table?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Um yeah, no, so many games being tried all the time. Uh I I I had a hang up the last uh six months or so with uh some of the Fabio Lopianos games.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Carimala is one of them, one of the slobests, actually. Yeah, really great interactive replacement here.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

And also um Energy Empire. Um Manhattan Project Energy Empire. It's really good. Uh also with graphics design and art by uh one of my favorite board game artists, uh Heiko Günter. It's a big inspiration for me. So that's cool. If you look at the new edition there, you can see that there are maybe some similarities with my style.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

So you gotta draw inspiration from somewhere, right? So it's uh yeah. I've not played I've not played Manhattan Project. That's there's been one that's gonna be on my periphery actually. So a friend of mine was talking about that, and I think they played it many years ago. It's quite an old game, isn't it? Manhattan Project. The original, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

It's a little yeah, the original. This is a little complicated because that was the original, and then they made like two spin-offs, I think. One of which is because the original game is about dropping nuclear bombs on the other players, you know. That's what you're trying to do. And then they made a more peaceful version about making power plants, which is the one I've been playing.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

And I think right now they're actually launching a follow-up, which is more about the bombs bit. So yeah, that's how it's going. And and then the version I played is relatively new uh from a couple of years ago. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Oh, fair enough. So yeah, that sounds cool. That sounds fun. So um oh, how about me? Yeah, what what did I just play at the weekend? I played two games actually, just on um uh just last weekend. I played Gugong um with its Panjun expansion. So have you ever heard of Gugong before?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

It's oh now I have to be careful.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Uh it's basically about China, yeah. It's it's uh uh kind of set in an old Imperial China where bribery has just been um abolished. But everyone's got around this this system of doing a gift exchange, and the whole mechanisms is basically you've got a hand of cards that are gifts of certain numbers from value of one to nine, and you can only go to a place if you've got a higher value gift than the one that's on the board, so you're effectively switching the cards and then you do the action. So it's kind of worker placement, but your workers are the cards in your hand, and there's that kind of puzzle of well, I need to put one higher than the well, not one, but a higher value than the one that's on the board, and so the board stakes ever changing as people interact with it. It's very clever and it's very midway, it's not too heavy, it's not too light, and there's a lot going on. But we did throw in the the Panjun in expansion, which adds a bunch of modules. I wanted to throw them all in, but my friends basically wouldn't let me do it. They just said no, we'll do one of them. I'm like, no, um, because I play Kugong a lot, so yeah, we played that, that was a blast. Um, and we played Lost Ruins of Arnak, which is just a good old classic Lost Ruins of Arnak game, which I've not played for a long time. So, yeah, good weekend of gaming, to be honest. Um, which is not always uh the case at the minute with work and and everything else that gets in the way, doesn't it? So yeah, yeah. So that's that's been mine. Um obviously going back, it's probably loads and loads of loads more, but I talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

I just remembered uh I've been putting container recently. I just learned.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Oh, I want to play this. Is this the new version that's come out? Yeah, yeah. I I might pick this up, you know, because I do like themes like that. I like uh economic games, and I think this is very economic because it's got a closed economy, right? In the game, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

It's like yeah, you don't know you're you're not really playing against the games mechanisms, you're very much always playing against the players, and yeah, I love it. So it's all about what they ever everyone else is doing, and I think that's really really cool and very yeah, yeah. I love that, very refreshing compared to most modern Euros, which are like wrestling with lots of mechanics and tracks, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Just being off compost on tracks. I'm a little a little tired of that uh recently, so it was really refreshing to play.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

So no, no, I need to I need to try this, and uh it it the new edition does look cool, and I know they've got like playmats for it, which looks like the sea, and then because it's like container island that sits in the middle, right? And you're moving your ships around. I do need to check this out. I probably will pick this up, yeah. Yeah,

PHASE C: WHAT IS DECKO?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

cool, excellent. Well, let's let's get on with the uh the the interview, Hawk. And so let's talk about Deco. Um, I know what Deco is because I own it and I played it a lot, and obviously you know what it is. Um, but for those that don't know, just picking this episode up and going, oh, what's this all about? What's this deco thing all about? What's what's the pitch of deco? How would you explain it to someone who's never played before?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yeah, so it's a straight-up mix between poker and deck building, and every uh round you play around with poker, try to win that hand, you build with chips, and uh after each round you buy new cards to build your deck. Uh, those are uh special cards, magical cards, not just straight up regular cards. They are like some cards are like two aces in one card or two tents or uh cards that burn other cards so you get them out of your deck. There's a lot of deck shedding going on there. And also, there's you have a little tableau of jokers next to the game, uh I mean uh next to your deck that are just passive ongoing powers that work the whole game. And they are like linked to typical poker actions. So you can have a joker that triggers every time you race the bet. Yeah, but not when you like just match the bet by calling, only when you race. And you can even have fold jokers that do really powerful stuff when you fold and just don't participate in the round. So it's all kind of like a meta poker experience that are that's made for gamers to turn uh poker into a gamers game. So that's how I would pitch it.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and I think you you asked me for a quote recently for your new campaign, and yeah, and and and it really cemented it in the last game I played of Deco recently, literally like a couple of weeks ago, that like I and I don't play poker nights as much as I used to. I used to play a lot of poker nights where we'd all throw in five pounds and we'll just play and it would last five hours, six hours, it'll go on forever all night, to the point where you can, I'm kind of getting a bit bored of this now. And it was never really about the money, it's never really about winning lots of money because I'm not hyper competitive in in gambling or anything like that. Uh some of my friends are, but I I tend to but I just play for the social experience. Um, and I think for me, what what Deco has done is replace that poker night feeling of getting your friends around, playing with chips, and as you said, game-find that that game to be more like uh what I'd expect to get out of a game in in the modern day uh ball gaming hobby. And and the fact that you can play a game in like 90 minutes is and some sometimes even quicker, which we'll we'll talk about in a minute. Um, but generally you know, around an hour to 90 minutes, you've got your game and and you're done, and you go, that was cool, let's re-rack and play it again. Because that's literally when we have a deco night, it's usually two games. We play two games back to back, bang, bang, because everyone will want to just re-rack and play it again. Uh so that kind of fills our game night, if that makes sense. So, yeah, that's that's that's kind of what you got to expect when you you play in this. It's you're getting a good solid experience, but it's not poke and eye that lasts six hours.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

No, no, it's you know, it's one of the things us game designers do is try to make it dramaturgically work, right? We try to limit how long it's gonna last and make sure it has a curve of excitement that increases through the game and it ends at the right moment at some sort of almost like a climax. And yeah, yeah, I definitely done that with deco, like wrestling poker in to fit into that kind of framework. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

And the the the ways that I think there's a couple of ways you've done that in the game, right? With these wildcard rounds. So as you go to round four and eight, I think something like that, maybe maybe it's different numbers, but as you go through these two wildcard rounds, and they are absolutely bonkers in the best absolute way, um, because they just inject this rule-breaking change to to how you would play typical deco, and yeah, that that you know up front, so they're not secret, and I love that because if it was a secret and you flip them and you go, right, this is what's happening, you'd be like, oh my god, like this is this is the worst. But because you know, you can plan around it. So if it's not a necessarily a negative thing, it's just a thing that flips something on its head, you can plan around that, and you've got time to get to that to maximize that that um that rule change for that particular round. But you can see some absolute bonkers, um, chips like you can win during those wildcard rounds. They are really fundamental and you can't ignore them because you really need to deal with them, right? And uh they are good fun, they are good fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Uh I can say something more about them. Like an example would be like yeah, one of our uh wildcard rounds is called low sum. So it's all about adding up the numbers on their cards instead of getting like a straight rough flush, it's just like whoever has the lowest sums. So if you have like four twos or even five twos, which is possible, then you'll just get another ten, or another player might have much more, and so suddenly the whole win condition is changed. Yeah, uh, and in those wildcard rounds, you also have an anti, which means all players have to chip in extra chips in the bed, so the pot gets quite big. So often almost half the chips, which are victory points, by the way, in this game, yeah, almost half of those are often earned in those two wildcard rounds. So they can be quite important, and uh yeah, and and the fact that you can plan for them is really cool, I think, because that effectively means you have to build one deck that works for three different game modes. Yeah, you can't just go with the main game mode, you also have to think of those two. So that really makes it more complex to build for. So the game is there's a lot of strategy and planning in it, more than you think, even though there's all kinds of wild stuff going on.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

So there is absolutely like what what cards you're hunting from the market, um, and is it is it a certain number that you're after, or is it a certain suit? Because if you're going for a flush strategy, you're obviously going to harvest uh you know clubs. I want all the clubs because I'm trying to build um you know a flush strategy out of it. But then because the cards aren't your standard cards, and I think this is the bit that my favorite bit about the game is the market cards, 100%. Jokers are fun. I thought the jokers would be my favourite. I really did. I thought, well, the jokers are just wild. I love the fact you've got the tableau and you're triggering this thing. Um, where actually, you know, folding your your hand is actually a really viable thing to do to kind of build up to get to what you need. But it's those market cards, just getting the the powers off them. So if you're looking for a club and you go, actually, it's a there's a a queen, and that queen's got now this ability, and you're like, Oh, now I can do this, and now I can do that, and and all the different options and avenues it gives you. So, as a gamer, it really tickles that that decision space part of your brain, um, which is rather like normal poker, you got your hand, you play the best that you can, and that's it. It's there's a bit more like it's layered, isn't it? It's a lot more layered um than your traditional poker games. So, yeah, I I definitely enjoy it for sure. Um, so

How's it been since the campaign launched last year?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

here's a question for you. So obviously that was released um or released to to Backers at least uh this year. And how's it been since the campaign has gone from last year to where you are today now and announcing its expansion, or at least going going live with your camp uh campaign for the expansion? How's it been?

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Yeah, well, people seem to generally like it, so that's good.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

And uh yeah, people uh get what they expected, and I think yeah. So those people who kind of research the game well, they are very pleased. Um people that don't like it, maybe some of them are not the right kind of players for this. Like if you are one of those people who only play two players, for example, or prefer games with absolutely no randomness and very low interaction, then maybe it's not for you. But I also do like it, I really enjoy it. And as you say, they play several games in a row and really get into it and see how much they can learn from game to game and enjoy the variety, and yeah, that's what it's all about, you know, providing constant new surprises and cool experiences and stuff you have to adapt to.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yeah. Absolutely.

DECKO constantly surprises you

SPEAKER_00 16:03

And I think I'll talk about one of my surprises then, and you already know this because I think we talked on email about it. But the last game we played, which is the second of the the the ones in our game night, um, was it was just surprises because it ended in round round four. Game ending. Um because the victory condition is um I think you have to get is it 50 chips for one to four player and 60 if it's five, I think. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, it's it's 60 and 70, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Oh, 60-70, that's it. I'm nearly right, just ten off.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

No worries.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah, so 60-70. So you needed to get that many chips, and then you you trigger the end of the game. Happy days. Um now what happened in in the the four front is the wildcard round, and we had uh the clown car um wildcard. And clown car basically turns off all the jokers that you have and activates all the ones that are in the market. So effectively, uh everyone's got their six jokers, and they're all on for everyone. And so what we had in there was another what the one of the clowns in there was Kingmaker and uh Mr. Jackpot, right? So Kingmaker was a calling um calling joker. So every time um someone uh calls, then everyone asks us to put more money in the pot to kind of even it out a bit, and then every time someone was raising, we're just adding lots more chips into your own little area because you you add four chips to a stack that if you win, you get them. Um so it's encouraging people to raise. So honestly, we had this just it all came to a point where someone was gonna win with off this hand because it got so many uh chips in the pot. It was like this is this is it, and it was very exciting. And I thought I had it. I thought I had it. I had uh oh, what did I have? It was um it could have been like a full house. Yeah, it was a full house or something like that. Um and yeah, someone else had a full house, but just one high. Oh yeah, and they just took the they just took the game and I was like, no, but it was just one of those really exciting moments where it was really tense and everyone was in, like you you had to be in in this moment, and it really just yeah, brought to life. And that's just because that wildcard round, it was just it was crazy, but in all in the best way.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

That's a typical feeling in Deco, like you have a good hand and you start racing, and then two other people are also doing that, and oh crap, they also have really good hands, and yeah, yeah, now and I once you started betting, it's so hard to pull out and fold, even though maybe you should. Um yeah, and in that case, of course, you saw the game would end, so yeah, it was probably your best chance of winning the game.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Exactly. It's like I've got to go in, I've got I had had to go in, and everyone was fueling the pot. So it was like, Well, this is it, it's this is it's all or nothing now, and yeah, it's it's very pokery in in that way. It it yeah, and I think that's what that game kind of provides is different moments. So don't get me wrong, it's the only game I've ever had that's ended early. Like normally they would go towards the back end of the game, either for that second wildcard round or or literally the distance they would go uh that that particular way. It just depends on how you've built your deck, how others have built your deck to counteract that, um, so you don't end up with a one slide.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

But yeah, and and a group as well. Um groups are very risky-commerce and they always play the full 12 rounds and uh yeah. And others, like I know the Dice Tower people, they just end usually end after the one round or two after the second wildcard round because yeah, so much betting and taking chances.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

So yeah, yeah, people fuel it. Yeah.

PHASE D: DECKO PISTACHIO EXPANSION

SPEAKER_00 19:35

So yeah, so so Deco, um, yeah, I mean, since that original um premise has has kind of been brought to life, and and I think it's probably a question that leads into the expansion, but has has kind of your design design philosophy changed on the game since you released it? Like, did you always knew that you were gonna expand into this game, or did you think at the time that I'm this is it, this is what I'm gonna do? So, how how did that expansion come to life? Like, was it something that you already had? And I'll just I'll see how this goes first and then I'll look at that, or did it just organically grow?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, I I didn't want to start deciding an expansion until uh the first one is out, just to not waste any time, and also just to yeah, because it would only be worth doing if Deco was successful. Uh and I also like to see like get a general idea of the reception of the base game before I make an expansion, that's always a good idea. Yeah, uh, of course, I knew that people would ask for more cards. That's obvious. For all my games, people are always demanding more cards and they're gonna be. Yeah, yeah. That's that's a very easy and uh no-brainer thing to ask for. But uh for the designer it can be quite challenging, especially with my games, because I want every card to be quite significant and big. I don't do cards like oh, this gives you one resource, uh and stuff like that. They have to be listed, like yeah. So I have to really work hard to make new cards. But uh, I don't saw and I made a ton of new cards for the expansion, and uh it will double the market deck from 52 to 104, and also lots of the jokers and wild cards. So I think it will deliver on all that stuff people want. And yeah, that's the main thing they've been asking for.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Main more cards. So effectively, you're calling the original market like vanilla, yeah. Um that's that's basically the vanilla set, and then now this is the pistachio effectively uh deck um that you can you can throw in. And so with that expansion, then so we're getting more market cards, we're getting more jokers as well. Yeah, yeah, I know the answer, but uh yes, you do, you do, yeah. Yeah, so more stuff, more wildcard rounds, more jokers, more market cards, and effective, like you said, doubling uh potentially the market deck. So I think you're saying that with the Market cards you can play with vanilla, you can play with pistachio on its own, or you can throw it all together and and have this kind of larger deck. And obviously, there's when the more and more cards you're gonna have in the market, the more chance you've got for dilution of certain things that you're hunting for. But then but the the beauty of the card deck is or the market deck is that you still got the same chance of numbers than you would because um it's effectively a um you know 52 card deck in essence by the the distribution of the the numbers, right? I I believe it's kind of you've got every number that kind of would exist in in a 52-card deck, but obviously with the the twists that you've added in in the game. Yeah. So if you just add more, then you've still got that chance, but it's just one of those things, and it's more options and more things. But I think if you're playing on higher player counts, you're not likely to run out at all because you've got so many options in there that you can hunt through, which is which is cool. For me, I think we'll probably just throw it all together. Um and I'm looking forward to

Examples of the new Pistachio market cards

SPEAKER_00 23:02

that. So what's some examples then of some of those new cards? If people are deco veterans and they're looking for more, what what are some examples of what have you got for goodies? What are the goodies? Harkin.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

I I'll I'll let you know. Yeah, uh let's see.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I'm just gonna take the list.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

The game pound uh page left, so I get the list in front of me.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

So uh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah, so yeah. First of all, we have uh sticky cards, cards that stick to your hand.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

These are probably my favorites.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, yeah, I just drew some pistachio goo on them. Uh I also do the artwork for the game, by the way. Uh so these cards they never leave your hand once you get them. So it's a very I love the simplicity.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

I love the simplicity of that. So you draw the card and it's there. Just stays there, whether you want it to or not.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

So it could be great, but it could also be annoying. So it's just one of those things.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah, you might have a seven stuck in your hand always, and it really helps you get three sevens and so on and so on. Um yeah, but maybe later in the game someone has lots of eights, and your sevens are just redundant, and you need to pivot, and then uh yeah. Then you can just burn that card because in deco you get to remove a card permanently from your deck every round. I think all deck builders should do this really because it's so nice to just sling it down. Oh yeah, uh yeah, so that helps with that. Uh yeah, and other card types, we have the bling bling cards, which are like cards with lots of gold and diamonds on them, and they just give you lots of extra chips if you win.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Oh, so that's like you're betting on yourself to kind of make sure you win because you're gonna get more out of this if you do. Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, and if you can have several bling bling cards in the same hand and win, which would give you a lot because each of those gives you five chips, but that could be tricky because they're all different numbers, right? So one is a five, another is a four, and so on.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, it's gonna have to run a straight.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

But I'm gonna make it yeah, I'm gonna make it possible to do a straight with only the bling cards, and that will give you like 25 chips on top of the pot.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

That's oh that's wild. That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

That's gonna be it is it is gonna be hard, hard.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

No one's gonna let you do that.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yeah. Only the newbie games, and uh then you play again after you walk, hopefully. People are not uh very sad.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

So that's gonna be a really cool thing to have. And it could even be even be that you have a bling card that doesn't match what you're going for, but you know, you usually have if you have four of a kind, you have one spare card. That could be anything. Yeah, that could be a bling thing just doing something for you.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Uh and then we have a really cool addition, it's the cosmic aces. So they are some new ace cards that can be used as aces, and the artworks show them kind of floating in space. And those can actually just be swapped out for all the cards in the market during the betting rounds.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

So wow. So from the market, you you do a switcheroo in the mark and go, uh no, I want that one, please. Oh, that's ass, yeah, that's amazing. Because that's very situational as well, isn't it? To go, that's the card I need right now. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

And then yeah, yeah, yeah. Then maybe you add something everything with your current hand that doesn't really build your deck, but maybe it's still worth it, uh and all that. Um, and that ace becomes available for someone else, yeah. Think of that as well. Yeah, or someone could just hoard all of those aces and then do for aces instead. Yeah, it's gonna be easy to go for aces because these aces are gonna go in and out of the market all the time.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

So that's gonna be a dynamic you really have to watch as well. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

That's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Yeah. Uh yeah. Should I do more?

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, please. Let's go for them.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah, and we have frozen cards. Yeah, those cards are not in your deck, they stay on the side, like they're in the freezer. And then you can just kind of take them back into your deck whenever you want to.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

All right, so you've got the card you need, but not right now. And then when when you finally draw the hand that needs it, you can pull that into your hand. Yes, exactly. Oh, that sounds awesome. I like that one.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah, yeah, it kind of lets you pretend you have a smaller deck than you have and uh benefit from that. Uh very useful. And after you don't need once, though, it's in your deck forever. Uh yeah. Okay, and we have what's called the royal mirror cards. So they have a mirror on them and they copy the effect of a royal card in hand. So we have some really powerful uh queens and kings and jets in this game. And if you have one of those cards, they can either act as the card it is, like uh let's say it's a tree, it can use as a tree or as a copy of your queen. And maybe your queen burns a card every round, or maybe now you can burn two because you have the mirror. Or you have a king that gives you chips, now it's twice as many, so those are gonna be very attractive and make those royal card builds really sing. Uh yeah, we have a queen that steals chips, one that burns cards. Yeah, we have one that gives you cards for free. We have a card, the queen that pickles all the cards, like puts them into jars so that you can save them for later.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

The pickle queen. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of that stuff in here. Like you can set yourself up for a power round. Like maybe you have a frozen card and you have a cosmic ace, and you use those in the same turn and get a power turn. But then everyone's gonna see that you're doing that, and maybe they fold, maybe they don't.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Uh it's a really cool addition, I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Yeah, so those are some examples of new market cards.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah, if you want to set check more examples out, check the game found page out because they're they're literally all on there, right, Arkin. So you've got the full breakdown of kind of what the expansion's gonna cover with lots of examples, and those that are deco veterans will will get excited for sure. They'll know what that means and how powerful those things really mean. Um, and if you're not a deco veteran and this is your new, you know, your first time to this campaign, they'll just get excited anyway, because even with the base box, there's a lot of fun in in there to be had. Um, and even with the the existing market cards and powers, it's yeah, it's it's it's brilliant. Nice. No, nice. So

Are we getting more flavours for future expansions?

SPEAKER_00 29:25

I've did you kind of like we've got this pistachio expansion. So now I'm gonna ask you the question, which is are there gonna be more flavors um that you think about in the future? Are we are we looking for for different flavors um of expansions? Have have you now kind of built this as a system which is now expandable? And where where do you end?

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Exactly, yeah, marketing-wise, I can make every Italian flavor like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

You could absolutely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

But I I've I've actually just I I've not planned anything, I've not saved anything, I've just thrown all my best ideas in there. Yeah, I think that's what I should do. Uh if I'm doing another expand batch later, I'm sure I'll have more IDs, they'll come in and uh I'll be able to do that. Uh so I'll probably do a different game for my next game file next year. Uh I think that's healthy for me to just switch it up once in a while. But uh but yeah, of course it would be cool to return to Deco later at some point, but uh I don't know when.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yeah, it's it's good to mix it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely good to mix it up a bit, right? Which is yeah, which is kind of what you need to do. And for those that don't know, you you have designed uh other games. Deco is not the only one you've designed, you've designed um you know villagers, streets, moon, um, uh Yonder. I think it was another one. I still haven't played Yonder. I need to play. Um I think you would enjoy it. It's more and more like Euro and complicated worker placements with different, I don't know, like fantasy beings that you you use and they've got different kinds of abilities, right? But yeah, I need I need to I keep meaning to put it on my list to check out, but you know what it's like, Hawken, there's like thousands and thousands of games. Of course. Yeah, I need to play this. Um the trouble is I don't know anyone with it, so I'll I'll I'll rectify that at some point.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yeah, yeah. They're gonna launch it. I think they're gonna push it at S in German, actually.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

And uh seven English copies, so that's gonna be oh okay, then well, yeah, as you know, Essenspiel is uh is this week on recording. When we release this, it would have already been in the past, but um, so yeah, I'm literally going tomorrow. So uh yeah, I'll keep keep my eye out for that. I'll keep my eye out

When can people get their hands on this new expansion and base game?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

for that. Yeah, okay. Um, so going back to pistachio expansion then. So if people are interested in in Deco or the expansion, um obviously this recording, uh the game found uh I think it's just on its final few days, right? So um yeah, like when when can backers expect uh to receive their copies? What's the the timeline saying? Um I'm assuming it's next year.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah, we're going for May next year. So it's gonna be quite similar to uh how we did last time, so I'm quite confident in doing that. Uh this is one month uh faster than we ended up doing for the previous campaign.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

But uh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

I think I might be uh uh able to because I'm already working with the factory with files and stuff and trying to get everything ready.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Uh right now we're in mid-campaign, so I have to see how many we're gonna sell. Um last time I sold a lot in the um pledge manager, actually. So yeah, I have to try and anticipate that. But uh yeah, we're looking for uh May, uh starting in May and then moving on in the next few months. So relatively quick for being a game founder, I think.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah. And because it's a reprint reprint of the base game and expansion as well. Um, so again, another opportunity for people to to get in on this. Because am I right in thinking that you you're not getting this in retail? This is the only way of getting deco is through this campaign. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, I have uh kind of experimental business model here with it's game farm exclusive, and uh it's not a big bloated game to because they have to do that with many game form campaigns, right? Have lots of add-ons so that it differentiates from the base game in stores, but I don't really like that. Instead, I want to make one neat little package with no add-ons, like the best possible version of the game available for everyone who gets it. And uh backers can know that they are getting the best possible deal here, no one's gonna get it for cheap later in stores. So yeah, that's what I'm trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

I think it's really good because you know I've been on the receiving end of that where well there's two things, isn't there? Because if you've got a campaign that says, right, you've got this tier, right, which has been nothing wrong with that tier, it's perfectly fine, it plays well, and you've got the deluxe version, and then you've got, well, actually, there's an expansion, there's another expansion, another expansion, and and it plays into the FOMO of um basically gamers who think that oh, I just need to get it, and then they go in and then they find out they go to a convention and it's still not received their copies, and they're selling it at that convention, and it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good, and just sitting there going, Great, I could have waited, and actually I've not saved any money either, because I could have just got that. Um, so the fact that you're doing that, I think it's really respectful um to backers and to the to the hobbyists because

DECKO is deluxe out of the box

SPEAKER_00 34:45

the game that you're providing isn't isn't like oh there's that and a deluxe version, it is deluxe. Like without a doubt. Like if people are wondering um about the quality of the game, you know, your cards are gilded, are they beautiful? You know, got the nice gold gilded sides on them. You've got near-pre-mat to play on, you've got proper weighted poker chips, they're not they're not like cheap feeling, they are got hefty weight to the point where you annoy everyone by playing with them at the table because you have to. You have to play with those chips, it's what you do. Um, and yeah, the the the experience feels more premium than than what people might expect if you think, oh, it's just this. No, you're getting a premium experience. Um and and that's your vision, right? That was what you wanted. That's the that's the package, that's the product. Do you want it? It's there. If not, then it is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

And I I I figure that out that I kind of have to do it that way because you know, shipping prices, people don't want people say, why don't you have a cheap standard version? And uh one of the reasons behind that is I can't offer you a version that costs half what you're gonna pay in shipping. That's you're not gonna want to buy that. So but you want to buy a deluxe game, that's really nice. That justifies paying the shipping. It's a little an equation there. Um I could make a $10 game and it would still cost like to ship it to Canada, would still cost me $50, and I would I would then use those ten dollars to subsidize it to the shipping and make more money, and you would still pay $40 in shipping. So yeah, it's that's how crowdfunding is.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

It it's the reality, isn't it? Is that the you're paying for space in a either in containers or or whatever, right? And it that doesn't care if it's deluxe or not, it really doesn't care. Like it's it you're paying for the space regardless of filling it, regardless of what it is, even if the box size is the same, but what's in it is different, doesn't matter. You've got to ship it from A to B and it costs what it costs. And these days it's not cheap. It's not cheap to move stuff around the world. It's it's gotten worse and more expensive, hasn't it, to do it. So you have to do something that's viable. You can't just uh just do this and yeah, hope for the best. No, you've got to keep yourself whole, and and the fact you're here to do it again suggests it works, so yeah, yeah, it did work. Yeah, yeah, which is exactly what you want.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah, and part of that whole equation is that I I'm a one-man company. Uh yeah, I have people to help with playtesting and proofreading and so on, but it's just me mostly, and that actually speeds up things a little bit. Uh, but it also makes me want to keep things as simple as possible. Um yeah, you know, for every add-on you add, the spreadsheets get exponentially more complicated.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

It gets really hard after a while.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yeah, and then you get all the variations. I can have that with that and that, or I can have that with this and this one, and then how many combinations of of skew items and things? So you're right, it keeps it simple. And the fact that you are um, you know, just on your own with Gem Games, uh, which is your your publishing company, and the fact that you ran that campaign, uh, I I'm considering very successfully with uh the communications that you did, meant you did the right thing. Because a lot of people take on they take on too much, don't they? They think they don't think about the consequences of of how they build that campaign and what that ends up being like, and then they end up in problems, which is oh my god, we we've got all of this complexity that we've built in now that we've got to get product from A to B in the right configurations that people have asked for, and um yeah, and the fact you're on your own doing it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah, I think people do lots of campaigns get delayed for that reason because the whole logistics become complicated, and they maybe they have translations into five languages as well. Yeah, so it just exponentially gets insane. Uh yeah, so I made something manageable and uh it works.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

New Hand Jokers!!!

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Um, is there anything else you want to cover on the pistachio expansion, Harkin? Anything else for for the listeners and viewers uh to get excited about?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah, I I have a stretch goal and I'm gonna share today. This is a new campaign, but you're you're listening two weeks later or something. But uh yeah, so there's there's some new type of joker now that's gonna come in.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

A new type?

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yes, it's or a subtype. Okay, so they're called hand jokers. Um they belong in the six yeah, they are in the six regular types, six regular colors of jokers, fold race and call and so on.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

But these ones go into your hand and they affect your hand. Oh. Uh yeah, so you can have one that's like discounts as any royal card, for example, or discounts as the same as your highest number, and so on. Uh but you only get to use them once. And after you use them, they get shuffled back in with the other jokers, so one can get them later.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Okay, yeah. So they can be recycled.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah, and several of the other new jokers as well are like jokers you just use once. So one of the side effects of that is that instead of being stuck with one race joker all game, you're gonna have maybe three different ones through the game because you use them once, and then you get another one. And uh that's another thing that just gonna add more excitement to the game, more variety.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, so can so can you in that instance then? Because obviously, when you buy your traditional jokers and they go in your tableau, you can only have one of each type, right? Um, yeah, which also means if I'm reading the rules right, which it might be me, because I uh I probably haven't. Um, but if I've got a raised joker, does that mean I can't buy another raised joker? Am I stuck with basically the one I've bought?

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Yeah, yeah. So, but with these hand ones, can I have one in my hand and the tableau one, or is it one or the other?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

It's one or the other. So what you do is you get the you get the hand joker, you put it down in the tableau as normal. And later when you do a race action, you can choose if you want to add it to your hand this round or not.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

So the takes you need it right now, or maybe you even pick it up now because you see a good other good race joker that you want instead. So just want to cycle it through.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Cycle it, yeah. Well, that's cool. So it gives you a bit more opportunity to to manage a joker situation. Um, yeah, because sometimes you think it's like that's a great idea, and you go, Oh, I'm not now because I'm well put my deck, it doesn't help me. But that's the beauty of it, isn't it? Trying to configure the jokers to what you're trying to do. Those jokers are fun, they are fun. Yeah. What's that new one that you've got? Oh, is it cheapo? Is it cheapo on the new jokers? Yeah, I forgot what it did, but I remember reading it, going, That's clever. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Yeah, yeah. So cheapo can raise the bet by betting cards instead of chips.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

And the winner gets that.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yeah, just get rid of your chaff. Like, no, I don't want that. Just get rid of that rubbish.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Yeah. And the winner gets stuck with that card, so it's really fun. If you win yourself, you get it back. So it's gonna be a pretty pretty good one. It's gonna be an expensive joker.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Yeah, no, that does so there's so much fun, fun stuff coming. Um, which is what you see.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah, it's like asymmetric player powers getting added to players for the fly. That's yeah, yeah, pretty much what they are. Yeah, yeah, there are some really cool ones there, and uh, there's one called the Bomb that just lets you burn three cards at once, and it's a one-use joker. Yeah. Yeah, lots of cool

Enhancing the quality of life as well

SPEAKER_01 42:21

stuff coming. Uh yeah, I also want to talk about uh yeah, I'm just doing some quality of life stuff as well. Uh I'm redoing the whole rulebook along with the expansion, so we get all the rules in one book. Which I really don't like when yeah. I don't like having several rulebooks for games. Um now that I'm a publisher, I have to live up to my own uh demands for games.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Your own CD, I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Yeah, yeah. So that's and that's just gonna let me like improve the rulebook a bit as well. Yeah, integrate everything really smoothly. So that's gonna be great. And you got new play rates, like and also some people who are not familiar with poker are gonna really appreciate the new play rates that just show visually what the flush is and what a street is, and so on.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah, yeah. And I feel the icon reference for people wanting that, so yeah. That's gonna be really helpful, I think.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Yeah, they they are the things that seem quite small, but often become the biggest barriers for trying to learn the game, right? Um, and I'm really, really happy that you're you're kind of taking that side of it seriously because yeah, I've got game, I love like certain games, and I don't want to kind of mention these specific games because I I really like respect the designers and I really respect the publishers and all those kind of things. But we all know of games that have got, let's say, four or five expansions, and I've now got five rule books to sift through, which is all well and good if you're just looking up a rule, but it's usually the setup. So when I'm setting up, it's a case of well, I go from here, steps one, two, three. Oh, if it's four, and then I've got to look at this rule book, fine, find that and go, uh yeah, and then I've got to look at the next one. It becomes a barrier for me even wanting to put the game to the table sometimes because I've got to think, oh, I've got to go through all of that. And the fact that you you recognise this and just said, no, actually, I'm just gonna have a rule but that can consolidates that. Perfect. Because a lot of the times that would help me with some of these other games, some heavy Euros examples that for just that one rule but to follow the list of uh done. It takes all of that nonsense away. But I get that it's an additional cost, it's an additional overhead, it's an additional thing you've got to think about. And maybe in in Deco it's not as uh a grand a project as maybe as some of the others' games that have got some you know five, six, seven um expansions in there, but still I like the fact it's your philosophy, which is yeah, reduce barrier of entry to game because you can get people playing the game quickly, then they're having fun, and that's the objective complete, right? Done, you've done your job.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah, just my trick is I just make what I would want others to do. Like what would I want in a game, and then I do that, and that's such a nice way to make everything intuitive.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yeah, you gotta have good player aids and you gotta have a good rule book. That's essential as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Yeah, excellent stuff. Um, anything else you want to raise?

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Uh I can't think of anything. I guess when people are listening or watching this, then the campaign is about to end. So please go on GameFound and check it out.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Yeah, you've got the link straight under this video. So go and click on that, check it out. Um, and implore you to do. If you really like your poker style games, you like deck building games, um, yeah, honestly, check it out, check the videos, check the the playthroughs that are available and see if that's kind of your your jam. And uh I've got an upcoming episode. I'm gonna let you know about this, Hagen. I've got an upcoming episode um where I'm gonna talk more about games that are gambling games adjacent. So it's kind of like your poker variant games or anything that's kind of in that world but is more game, and Deco is obviously gonna feature because it's it's it's there. So I want to do a whole episode about that as a theme. So if that sounds interesting to the listeners and viewers, then yeah, check it out. I'll I'll dive deeper into this and others. Um, so yeah, I I I'm really into them at the minute. Like I really like the fact that there's this there's a flurry of different style games coming out that are taking the the poker or some sort of form of gambling-esque um game and then gamifying it into the hobby. I think it's just really an interesting time. Um definitely check that out. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

And oh, by the way, yeah, uh just yeah, if if uh anyone listening or watching want to ask me questions, they can just ask me uh in the comments on YouTube or yeah, whatever you publish, and I I will try to answer them immediately.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate that. And then that we've got an engaged viewer base, so we typically do get questions and comments. So do check that out. And uh anyone who's is interested to learn more. Yeah, awesome, thank you for that. Um worries,

PHASE E: WHAT'S COMING UP?

SPEAKER_00 47:02

yeah. So I think we're probably getting to the end uh of the chat. Um, not that I want to, but it's just I think we're probably getting there. As always, I can talk to my guests for for hours and hours, but we've probably got things to do. One of which I need to pack for Essen. Um, so what's are you looking forward to? Obviously, you've got Essen Spiel coming up. I've got it coming up literally tomorrow. Um, so but yeah, are you looking forward to the show? Looking forward to getting out there.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Definitely, definitely. Yeah. So yeah, I'm starting to assemble a plan for games to check out. Uh I'm gonna check out the one called Trash Poker because it's very similar to Deco.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yes, I I have that on my list as well for the same reason I've just talked about poker games, but I did see that and thought, oh, that looks similar. But is it similar or is it way different? So yeah, trash poker, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Yeah, I think it's gonna be uh very different take on the same uh idea. It's gonna be competitive, but I I think they have like packs you and lock during games and stuff like that. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

That's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah, and uh yeah, and I'm just gonna yeah, just see what fancies me when I walk around, obviously. And uh I think that's the best thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

That's the best thing for me. I I like to, I mean, I've got my lists and and usually my the realities are when I'm walking around those lists go out the window because I'm like, what's what's that? Um but yeah, I I like to attend the uh the the novelties show on on the Wednesday that they do. Uh because obviously for a press like me, it's quite useful to see what's on offer before the crowds come in.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Um because it's a lot easier and more laid back than the uh regular yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

I can get around pretty much most of the publishers in in two hours than I can when the trade um fair kind of opens up, but there's nothing quite like it. It's it's it's an experience. If you've not done Essen before, um you've got to do it at least once, I would say. Uh it's a very different experience to uh the UK Games Expo that we have in the UK. It's not the same thing, it's it's its own animal, it's his own beast. But if you like to be on the cutting edge of releases and what's coming, that's it. It's like Essence is the best. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Yeah, there's not there's not playing Solomon, which I think is uh that's my main criticism. That's really lame. But uh, people have such good traditions there for playing in hotels and everywhere, so yeah, it's it's a different way of there.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah, that that's the thing. I I've got friends who um it's a bit put off by that point because they like to go like to do the trade thing, like to go around, but then they like to retreat somewhere and play some games and relax. And because that doesn't have that space, they don't want you sitting around playing games for whatever reason. Um it is that oh no, we you can always leave and just go to the hotel and do it. So it's not like you don't get to do it when you're away, because you do, because that's I learned when I went is to don't stay in the halls till the end of the day every day. You're there for four days plus the press, you can leave early and go and game, it's fine. There's enough time to get around. And I made this mistake the first time I went, I I literally every day to I'd trying to squeeze as much time as I can. I was I was knackered, I was absolutely doing our job instead of a vacation, right? Yeah, oh my god, I need to sit down, and and then when I came back next year, I thought I'm not doing that, we're gonna leave early, I'm gonna play more games, and the balance of seeing and playing was was better, and I think that that definitely made it a more enjoyable experience because that's half the fun. I want to get the new releases and I want to play them. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, so yeah, excellent. Okay, well let's uh let's let's end it here then. But no, thank you, Harkin, for your time. I appreciate you going through. I'm I'm generally excited for the expansion. I've already backed it, I'm already uh one of the numbers there, so I'll be looking forward to to getting a copy of that. Um, and yeah, if you're interested, please check out the link. Please jump on the game found page, check it out, and uh if it looks like your vibe, then go for it. Because uh yeah, you'll you'll have a lot of fun. I I've I've literally have been uh having a lot of fun with it over the past uh few months when when my original copy landed. So but no, thank you, Harkin. I appreciate it, and I'll no doubt see you at Essenchville.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Yeah, I'll see you there. Thanks for having me.

PHASE F: THE LAST PLAY

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah, no problem. Well, there you have it. So thank you, Harkin, for the interview. Always a pleasure to catch up with you and learn more about that pistachio expansion. And any excuse to get Deco out and play more uh kind of poker adjacent games is is always a good thing in my book. But if you enjoyed this episode, then please as always uh like, review, subscribe, uh comment, engage, do all of the things that kind of help small channels like mine. Um it really, really makes a big difference. And if you really want to help support the channel financially, we have coffee where you can throw us a few quid and it keeps the channel trundling along and and hopefully uh keep us going well into the new year. Um, but as always, I'll end this note which is you only grow old when you stop playing. Take care, everyone.